Counter-Currents
Andrew Torba
1,817 words
Andrew Torba unwittingly sowed division within the Dissident Right last week by announcing that he will be sponsoring America First’s (AF) real-world conference, AFPAC III. This was highly surprising to those who have followed the esoteric lore surrounding the AF’s decline that I have previously documented. Outside of certain circles such as our own, Fuentes has been propped up on somewhat normie-friendly platforms despite being on a downward spiral. This may be suspect, to say the least, but more importantly it explains why Torba may have been led to believe that America First is the right dog in this fight.
This has led Nick Jeelvy to go so far as to ask if Torba is a turncoat. I can say with confidence that this is not the case. Torba has had many chances to cash out on Gab and give the reins to Jews or controlled-opposition conservatives. The idea that he would, or even could sell out to America First seems almost impossible given his past steadfastness. Besides, what would “selling out” to a relatively powerless and mostly online movement such as AF even look like? No, Andrew Torba has sided with the groypers partly out of ignorance and partly after calculating that the alternative is likely worse. This is a difficult reality that most on the other side are unable to come to grips with.
We all know the gropers’ weaknesses. They are the clan of the Dissident Right with the worst optics, and they act as Fuentes’ own cult of personality. As a top-down organization, however, despite becoming as cringeworthy as those things they swore to destroy, they have at least some potential to become effective. The Fuentes strategy is the same as that of many political extremist snake-charmers and cult leaders throughout history: He is capitalizing off the atomization, isolation, and angst of downtrodden and victimized people for his own power and gain.
Then there are the wignats. Let me clarify one thing: I mean wignat in the original sense of the word, and not in the newer, broader definition that seems to encompass anyone who is not fanatically loyal to Fuentes. The true wignats are insufferable, have bad optics, and are also mentally unhinged. The fact that they have dominated Gab for this long, and yet Torba chose to side with their rivals, says much. The idea that the wignats have somehow reformed and are no longer mentally-retarded skinhead wiggers is simply not the case, as has become apparent after a few hours spent on Gab researching this topic. The groypers aren’t a serious political movement . . . but unlike their rivals, they at least pretend to be.
I wanted to like the wignats, and yet they are simply not likable. They call anyone who is not a wignat (in the original sense) a liberal or Jew, which simply screams “retard.” This has in large part led to groypers mass-blocking wignats so that they don’t have to see their posts. Nick Fuentes is many things, but someone who denies race realism and the Jewish Question isn’t one of them. He was blacklisted for saying that race-mixing is almost equivalent to bestiality and for telling a Holocaust joke, after all.
That being said, the groypers and Fuentes are hardly blameless. Since my original trio of articles, the situation in America First has grown worse by the day in terms of their messaging (hello, optics department?). They have gone from hating women in a pathetic and petulant way to “joking” about rape and the death of white women, especially the wives of “wignats” (perhaps this acknowledgment of wignats at least having wives is a Freudian slip betraying inferiority?).
You Can buy F. Roger Devlin’s Sexual Utopia in Power here.
It is undeniable that modern female insolence is among the greatest problems we face today. The solution, however, is not to make the male dating pool just as insufferable. Furthermore, there are still many relatively trad women, especially those who have been successfully courted by our guys. Those who are on our side but have wisely rejected the incel nonsense are mostly in long-term relationships or married in a world where the average young man is having trouble in the dating market and the average woman is a slut. The groyper attacks on proper women simply for being women are no different than Jews and non-whites attacking whites simply for being white.
This terrible culture which Fuentes fomented by expelling any dissenting voices has led to an echo chamber in which everything that represents bad optics is allowed to run amok as long as its perpetrators are loyal to Fuentes. This has allowed the wignats to give the groypers a bloody nose for the time being. The groypers had planned to waltz into Gab as its new elite caste, approved by the big man himself, and believing themselves to be a much, much bigger deal than they really are.
On Gab’s beachhead, however, the groypers met fierce resistance from the long-entrenched community as National Socialists and Q boomers united to wipe out the woman-hating incel nerd scourge before they could take root. It was a ratio massacre. Online iterations of what I wrote about in “The Groyper Civil War” are manifesting in comment sections all over Gab. Normal, middle-aged QAnon women are joining forces with “wignats” and taking groypers to task for their optics-poor comments, just as they did in real life at the Springfield America First rally.
The entire ordeal has been quite black-pilling. On one side are a merry band of unemployable, mentally unstable children fantasizing about raping the girls who rejected them and using politics and a feigned pseudo-Catholicism as an outlet for their anger. On the other side are low-IQ trailer trash who call everyone who disagrees with them Jews and simply lie outright for the sake of causing drama. One thing that is clear is that the pool of online recruits in our ranks is no better than that of the gullible conservative boomers and the Left’s mentally ill eunuch-lovers. With people like these, we won’t be “RETVRN”-ing to tradition and reestablishing the West anytime soon.
As for Andrew Torba, can we really claim that he is a liberal or centrist for backing the largest far-Right movement in America? While the groypers are largely bereft of quality, they do possess quantity. This is not to say that Nick Jeelvy, perhaps my favorite Counter-Currents contributor, is wrong for questioning Torba’s motives. Far from it. Rather, I believe that there has been a grave misunderstanding all around, and especially on Torba’s part. Fuentes probably induced Torba to support him in part by leaning on his past achievements, such as the “groyper wars” against Turning Point USA and getting a sitting congressman, Paul Gosar, to endorse him before he went off the deep end. Just because Nick Fuentes has turned out to be an anti-social megalomaniac who sees his followers as cannon-fodder doesn’t mean that he is not a reactionary, nor lacking in past credentials.
Fuentes wrote on Telegram that:
People who agree with us 99% of the way but personally dislike me will spend all their time sabotaging and undermining our work instead of doing anything productive themselves. It’s just not right.
I tend to agree with this. It isn’t right. I don’t like Fuentes. I don’t know if he’s a bad actor, but I certainly think he’s troubled. If he is advancing our message, however, there is little need to sow even more division among our ranks. If Fuentes can turn the heat down on the cringe and get his groypers in line, I see no reason for us to cause even more of this division, which only delights our enemies. Besides, Fuentes will likely destroy himself long before infighting does.
Torba is the definition of a good actor and someone we should not subject to our wrath. He has been working on Gab for years and has been harassed for his trouble. He’s a good Christian family man who has turned down offers to sell out in order to maintain a place for free speech, even one that was dominated in its formative years by mentally unhinged wignats and Q boomers. Torba has shown remarkable patience in dealing with these types. He has done more for true and uncensored online discourse than any of us, and he is the last person who should be subjected to guilt by association.
What should be taken away from this debacle is the fact that Torba had reasons for siding with the groypers over the wignat natives, even if some of those reasons are flawed. Those who are of the Dissident Right but who are not groypers have clearly overestimated themselves in the reactionary free market of ideas. The groypers are hated because no one likes a depressed incel loser, but the wignats are likewise hated because no one likes an uppity dreg suffering from Dunning-Kruger syndrome. If the Gab crowd is our non-elite pool of talent, then I say run for the hills and hope the Chekists can’t find you among the pine trees.
This may also be a lesson about people’s willingness to split up over relatively simple matters. If we can be divided so easily despite agreeing on so much, it is no surprise that the mainstream Right and center-Left have been so easily turned against each other by the elites. Much is being said that I fear is not truly meant. I don’t think most groypers truly hate pagans; most of them aren’t serious about religion, anyway. And I believe that most Right-wing pagans respect Catholicism and Orthodoxy as institutions that have preserved the ancient European traditions into the modern day and which have transcendent value. It must also be understood that the most heinous of groypers and wignats do not represent all, most, or even a sizable fraction of their respective sides. When we are pitted against one another, it is easy for divisive statements which few really believe to escalate out of control and cause bridges to be burned.
I would recommend a policy of mutual rapprochement. If the blunt instrument of this groyper mass can be sharpened and put to use, and if both wignats and groypers can mind their tongues and cut down on their respective autism, there is no telling what we could accomplish. This will require an ecumenical council of sorts in which both sides agree to focus on their commonalities, abandon their schismatic dogmas (incelism on one side and purity-spiraling on the other), and officially and permanently excommunicate the subversive bad actors making us all look bad — once and for all.
The creative, innovative youngsters and the experienced salty dogs must learn from each other so that we can have a full bag of tricks on our side for the true struggle. Maybe we should more often ask ourselves, “How does this help our people?” I direct this advice as much at myself as anyone else.
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29 comments
Nick Fuentes is at least anti vaccine mandate/coronavirus hoax and anti white extinction so that’s enough for me. Everything else is a distraction. Is he going to be the future right wing dictator probably not but he has dropped huge redpills on the masses. Petty bullshit is going to have to stop, and we need to comport ourselves like serious people. That includes staying in our own niches in the pro-white ecosystem and keep the internecine stuff to a minimum. That’s my opinion.
No wignat ever threatened to rape my wife or enslave me in a bauxite mine. Besides, your characterization of Gab’s denizens as low-IQ trailer trash is simply false. I have, however, seen a good amount of low IQ, trashy and juvenile behavior from Fuentes’ people.
Whatever respect I had for Torba in the past is now colored by the fact that he gave money and support to these people. Actions have consequences and if Torba is going to give money to people who want to rape my wife and enslave me in a bauxite mine, the least I can do is not lend support to his activities. I will still use his website and encumber his servers, but I will not pay him and I will not recommend people to pay him.
As for an ecumenical council, I wouldn’t be opposed to the idea. However, it will not happen. The Fuentes people hate us with a passion. They froth at the mouth whenever they talk about “wignat pagan nazis”. I imagine if we could see their body language, we would witness spine-fracturing paroxysms as they contemplate the tortures they’d devise for us. And if there’s something white people should absolutely stop doing, it’s trying to court people who hate us.
I say let Fuentes self-destruct, give his people no help, no support, nothing but our well-deserved contempt. He’s recently caught the attention of the federal government, so we should be nowhere near him anyway.
Relax brother. None of these worthless turds are going to “enslave” you or rape your wife. I doubt they would be able to succeed in either of those tasks, especially the rape part. They did achieve their goal though in getting in your head. In that sense, they won. I don’t know what a wignat or groyper is and I can honestly care less. Call me anything you want, just don’t call me late for dinner.
I have read a bunch of your pieces and watched a few of your livestreams on The Writers Block. I think you got a good head on your shoulders and you seem well versed in history which I think is as important, if not more than anything out there. All this other bullshit is beneath you so let it stay there, don’t get sucked in. Could take a while to clean yourself. Keep doing what you are doing and I look forward to reading your pieces and listening to your livestreams.
I still maintain that Fuentes is a net positive for White interests. He has been more effective in getting some of our ideas into the mainstream, and getting support from some mainstream pundits and politicians, than anyone else in our spheres. And he’s still very young. Hopefully he gets married soon and ceases with the promotion of inceldom. His promotion of inceldom and general immaturity are the things that I find most off-putting about him. Once he matures a bit hopefully he does away with all of that kind of nonsense, I could be wrong but I don’t think he’s going anywhere and AF is not dying anytime soon. None of that is as bad as NatSoc larping or endlessly getting deep in the weeds with discussing WWII revisionism or being anti-Christian, all of these things that the TRUE bad optics wignats tend to engage in sends normal White folks running screaming from us, fast.
Frankly most leaders are not normal people. But we need any leaders in our spheres to appeal to normal White folks with normal sensibilities. We need to address Jewish power and influence but it must be done tactfully and by bringing up easily-provable facts such as the power and negative influence organizations like AIPAC, ADL, etc have over our politics and society, NOT by getting deep in the weeds with WWII revisionist history etc. Expressing any anti-Christian sentiment or promotion of any sort of paganism among any leaders from within our ranks should be avoided if we want to appeal to as many normal White folks as possible. Promotion of inceldom as cool in any way should of course absolutely be avoided. We do need to have hard conversations about the roles women should take, but threats of rape and over the top hostility towards women should obviously not be promoted or excused by any leaders within our spheres. We need to point out truths about non-Whites and some of the harm they tend to do (black crime rates etc) but without use of epithets or being overly needlessly insulting towards whatever non-White group.
Like it or not, if we are serious about winning, we need to get as many normal White folks in our side as possible. Some common sense ideas here for leaders within our ranks to apply in order that we appeal to as many of our people as possible without cucking on anything.
We should take a big tent approach as well, and accept help from non-Whites who do not want to see our civilization destroyed whenever possible. Promotion of them as leaders should absolutely be avoided though, and miscegenation should never be accepted as it results in biological White erasure. And a healthy skeptical eye should be kept on them. But if they want to help in supporting roles in the background I have no problem with that, we need all the help we can get! Nb4 “Fuentes isn’t White”, he’s white enough in appearance and in terms of ancestry to be a leader for our people IMO.
Also, we should all be in Gab. Whether one wants to support them financially or not is one’s own business and judgment call to make. Call me very skeptical that Mr Torba will take any measures to ban or censor anyone that the groypers do not approve of. Overall I’m a big fan of his and the work that he does.
Fuentes is not the leader. His job is to energize a sizable minority of the population in order to influence the majority. I do not believe that marriage is in the cards for him. His avowed incelism appeals to a demographic that none else has managed to capture (though feds have tried). All can see the Groypers’ dedication, if nothing else. Onlookers of fail to recognize the importance of humor. These kids are threatening to rape your wife because they think it’s funny to see you squirm. Don’t you remember being in junior high and high school? AF is a youth movement. They’re not going to speak or operate at the age level of some people who have been in this movement for a long time, nor should they.
I get that AF fills a certain niche. I just can’t get behind the promotion of being an incel. Maybe I am a bit old and out of touch with zoomer humor, but maintain that joking about rape or threatening rape will put off more normal white people than it would appeal to. But also nobody should take internet threats of rape by incel NEETS seriously. Honestly if someone on the internet threatened to rape any woman in my life I would not care or take it seriously because it’s obviously not a serious threat or statement, and pretty much all of those comments are probably tongue in cheek.
Nor should they??? You teach your toddlers to use the potty because they should. Then comes manners. Then comes the next thing and the next until they can handle themselves.
Sinope: His avowed incelism appeals to a demographic that none else has managed to capture
Exactly my thought. Disaffected young men tend to be receptive to censured ideas. This association gives a ready cudgel the political establishment can wield against dissidents, but it’s a real phenomenon. That receptivity is not going away. In some form or another, you have to deal with it. Many are socially maladroit, have low status and spend too much time on the computer . The moral panic virus feeds into that isolation.
Still, I don’t like to see young white men in that condition. It would be good for them to come into contact with higher level leadership. Torba is even tempered and grounded. I think he is a good role model.
I’ve watched Fuentes’ show a few times. He made me laugh out loud. Preachy teleprompter comedians like Colbert or Noah haven’t. His main pitfall lies in having a fan club at that young of an age. When people become satisfied with enthusiastic followers, there is a tendency to become stale. That’s not good for either of them.
We should still support GAB. The most important thing is to use and support every tool we have at our disposable to spread our message.
The left RARELY in fights. The cant ever seem to do anything else…Says a lot. Seen this happen over and over since the 90’s and nothings changed in 30 years.Im tired. This stuff is beyond old.
This is a totally silly dogma cited by the “no infighting” ninnies. Tell that to Trotsky.
The soviets had already taken over a nation by then. We have nothing. We barely have spaces on the internet.
Mr. Johnson, when you’re in a war for your own survival and that of your children, its important to give your enemy the impression of a united front. Its almost always not the case in any historical political sense behind the scenes. But it should appear that way publicly to the people trying to annihilate your entire race. Infighting is probably the most counter intuitive act that one can waste time doing. It doesn’t help. And it doesn’t sell books. So why on earth bother with it? For Gods sake why someone like me, a simple working class stiff, has to tell a highly educated person like yourself, someone who’s opinions and insights I respect, this is staggering to me…Truly demoralizing.
@Max Chungus – I completly agree. Very well said!! Also, no “copy-catting” intended; I had echoed your sentiment about White people losing in a previous comment in this thread, before I had read your comment above.
I think you have a false sense of urgency here. We have time to get the right ideas and the right strategies and tactics in place. We also need to call out bad actors and warn people against the eternal recurrence of bad ideas. All that involves what people wish to stigmatize as “infighting.” And if we don’t have time to get things right, then focusing on the wrong enemies, adopting the wrong tactics, and allowing bad actors to wreck things won’t save us anyway.
Theres always going to be bad actors. Always. Focus on the plan. Forge ahead. Be men of action. Not a bunch of hall monitors policing the minutia of every splinter group and sect we disagree with. Leave the drama for the sewing circles.The audience is tired if it. And thats who you have to convince and organize. There is little time. If you think there’s not go take a walk in atlanta ir Baltimore or Memphis or chicago.Time is precious.
I don’t care for the optics of it, but some intra-dissident vitriol is inevitable. When rap/hip hop, which I argue is the most insidious defiler and demoralizer of White youth and civilization, is promoted by Nick Fuentes, I am OK with the occasional purity test. A smart, discerning suburban White race realist who is stirred by slum chanting and droning high hats? Explain that to me.
That recent C-C article on Travis Scott called “Mulatto Perm America” was amazing. More of that, please.
By the way, C-C needs a classical music critic. Our cause needs to claim Bach and Brahms and the rest of the goldmine that is Western music. We were given Chopin’s miracle that is Op. 52* and we’ve passed it on to Asians in the competition circuit. Young Whites have nothing to say about Schubert, and even less about Shostakovich. Yet he is so wildly exciting and vital. Wagner has been reduced to a novelty and has been shaped most recently by the gay anti-racist critic of the New Yorker.
I know of one major city whose most visible classical critic is based, funny, and erudite. He’s nearing retirement and has time on his hands. He has confided in me that he wants to start writing about culture and politics.
*try Krystian Zimerman on DG
We don’t have a regular classical music columnist, but if you click the tag classical music, there is quite a lot to read by a number of writers: https://counter-currents.com/tag/classical-music/
When we expend our limited energy and resources attacking others groups in our sphere it lowers moral. Makes me put away the check book.
First off there is only infighting when you have degrees of difference among the like minded. This is not the case for the Right( Nationalists, “wignats” etc.) and Conservative centrists. This battle is about control of a inevitable movement away from the status quo in politics and who will be benefiting from the movement. The apt but overused saying “the definition of stupidity is to do the same dumb thing over and over and expect different results. Well the Right seeking to ally itself with the Center has proven to be historically a disaster for the Right. Its either betrayed wholesale or diluted to the point of irrelevance. The best case is the results of the Spanish civil war where the Right was coopted and castrated by their so called Conservative allies. If you want to continue on the path of having a “understanding” with the Conservative Center you might as well print a bunch of shirts with a target on the back which says “Conservatives insert knife here”.
We should not get discouraged or put away our wallets. We should continue to support pro-White politics and meta-politics, but exercise discrimination.
The trait of playing well with others is in short supply and it is valuable. We should reward those who display it, and ignore those who don’t.
Counter-Currents, Occidental Observer, and American Renaissance have long track records of playing well with others. They should be well rewarded.
At a less academic level, Red Ice, White Rabbit Radio, and other shows that encourage pro-White networking and disdain in-fighting should be rewarded. (It is good to pass around guests who have interesting things to say, so that they can get out their messages through multiple channels. That’s one example of the sort of comradeship that should continue.)
I think Gab should still be rewarded too. As Aquilonius said, Andrew Torba had opportunities to sell out, literally. He hasn’t, and instead he tried to support Christian and pro-White politics. I think he made a blunder in whom to support, but that’s unimportant compared to the value of Gab as a free speech platform.
The excellent Nick Jeelvy said:
“And if there’s something white people should absolutely stop doing, it’s trying to court people who hate us.
I say let Fuentes self-destruct, give his people no help, no support, nothing but our well-deserved contempt. He’s recently caught the attention of the federal government, so we should be nowhere near him anyway.”
I agree with all this. We don’t have time, resources, or good reasons to help those who hate us. Let them fight their own battles.
How about everyone just mind their own business and stay in their own lane? Everyone’s at different mile markers on the libertarian to fash pipeline/highway so just stay fixated on your own goals. Each faction has its own value in the marketplace of ideas. No one speaks for all the white race yet because no one’s been able to get the white race to collectively do anything to prevent their own genocide yet.Or even get them to see that they even exist. To me thats sad. Heck most people who are sympathetic or agree with the struggle to save our civilization are in hiding and most certainly will stay there if they look out across the right political landscape and see nothing but subversive regressive infighting. So until someone figures out something that resonates with OUR people, act like adults and be professional. Anyone who takes time and resources to attack other people fighting for similar overlapping objectives is just being catty and their motivations suss.
Part of the problem with white identity politics(the problem its always had) is its mixed up the stages of action on its developmental timeline. When its worried about optics, its forgotten doctrine. When it should he focused on a formulating a plan to carve out political power its focused on purity spirals and sect disputes. Golden dawn helped people find jobs and fed the unemployed. We sit around being paranoid wondering who’s a fed. All of this dumb childish drama queen BS ends with the best and brightest George Lincoln Rockwell’s getting merc’d. Literally and figuratively. Been around a while. Have seen this happen multiple times. Every time I sigh at the lack of footing achieved. Our wounds are almost always self inflicted.
“How about everyone just mind their own business and stay in their own lane?”
Gab is Andrew Torba’s business but everybody’s lane.
Nick Fuentes and America First have been marking Gab as their lane by being unpleasant to women and other pro-Whites who don’t think as they do.
“On the other side are low-IQ trailer trash who call everyone who disagrees with them Jews and simply lie outright for the sake of causing drama.”
“Trailer trash”?? Come on! Why is it that it’s always, always a White person using the anti-White epithet “trailer trash” and referring to someone White as “trash”?
Aquilonius, are you White? Of course you don’t have to like, or even accept, those Whites you obviously consider your inferiors. Couldn’t you at least fake some racial solidarity?Probably not. And this is exactly why White people are losing — everything.
Boy do I agree with this. It’s the same as denigrating whites in West Virginia or Appalachia. It’s ignorant snobbery and says much more about the person saying it than the group to whom it it directed.
The infighting is not going to stop because there is no leader left for us except Jesus Christ. God is pushing us to make clear decisions for Him now because the next “peacemaker” the people of this world will choose as a leader will be the antiChrist. Choose wisely.
I was appalled a family man like Torba would contribute to a group of women-hating rape fetishists. For a short period of time, I had to make my Gab account private/locked to avoid the Fuentes crowd scrolling my TL and responding to comments by noting I should be raped for having said what I said.
The Fuentes crew, and it’s woman hating leader, are filth and just about nothing will convince me otherwise.
I am sorry to hear that anyone on the Dissident Right considers Torba divisive.
With so much infighting, we need to have some figures who are universally respected. Kevin MacDonald is a universally respected figure. Stonetoss is another. I’d always considered Torba to be in that category.
On Gab’s beachhead, however, the groypers met fierce resistance from the long-entrenched community as National Socialists and Q boomers united to wipe out the woman-hating incel nerd scourge before they could take root.
One Struggle
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