Counter-Currents
68 words
Greg Johnson took part in a nearly 2-hour Red Ice roundtable hosted by Henrik Palmgren, with fellow panelists Daniel Friberg, John Morgan, RamZPaul, and Richard Spencer. The goal was to take stock of the pivotal events of 2015 and talk about what white advocates need to do in 2016. Although there was substantial agreement, there were also some sparks between Johnson and Spencer midway through. You can listen here.
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19 comments
I wanted to chime on the the debate between ethno-nationalism in Europe vs a Euro superstate. I agree with you, Greg. Ethnonationalism is important in Europe and a different approach should be taken for America (based of more generic whiteness). Also individual White subraces need to be preserved in Europe. I wish someone brought that up in the convo but there is only so much time I know. Perhaps you and Richard should do a debate like Steve Sailer did with Jared Taylor regarding “citizenism” vs white nationalism. Taylor, by the way, won that debate IMO.
I liked how you talked about concentric circles of identity. As I’m sure you know…
– Ethnocentrism is human nature and policy and political structure should be an outgrowth of that
– White ethnic groups differ significantly. In terms of personality, for instance, N. Euros are much more reserved than S. Euros. The White ethnic groups also differ in terms of their ability to create wealth and technology. More successful ethnic groups would not want to subsidize less productive White ethnic groups and the less successful groups would be spiteful of the richer ones.
“Were gonna have an imperial state, all Europeans will be the same!” -Richard
“The issues is sovereignty. The Czechs and Slovaks have separate, sovereign, sta…” -Greg
“No they don’t!” -Spencer
Spencer: “That’s it, it’s all over now. Surely Greg has been stumped.”
“Yes, they do they have there own present states.”
Spencer: “Look…”
TACTICAL NUKE! INCOMING!
5, 4, 3, 2… 1.
—
Greg: I don’t believe it, your dream has been veto.
Eddy Wally: Wow! *wink.
Knife Party – Centipede
Naw, it wasn’t like that.
Very good talk. Ramzpaul talked about how the Alt-Right has many kinds of characters. It reminded me of the talk Bowden did about Devi where he pointed out that revolutionary right wing movements are often peopled by “adventures, and outsiders, and quasi-artists, and demi-criminals, and religious mystics, and madmen.” I clearly fall in the last.
The more serious part came between Dr. Johnson and Mr. Spencer regarding the future shape of Europe. Johnson advocates the Nation state while Spencer advocate an ethno-realm. I think Johnson hit the problem at its core with the issue of sovereignty. There’s a balance to be considered. I don’t belive total sovereignty for the nation states is desirable. I believe there should be a single European currency. I believe in a common economic market. I believe there should be a single military but with national units. I don’t believe there should be total freedom of migration. This should be up to the various states. And there would need to be an Executive or monarch that would have as his main job harmony in this collective supra-national European body.
Mr. Morgan suggested a Holy Roman Empire model. This is more of a regional model. Where regions would take the place of states. I’ve often thought this myself, the problem is Europe is no longer unified by the Roman Catholic Church. Because of this identity is more national than spiritual, which could cause the risk of separatist movements. Because there is no unifying glue, its hard to see how a Holy Roman Empire model could work. But this does bring up the issue of a civil religion. Is it a good idea to push a European wide civic religion? Or should we not mess in spiritual affairs? I tend to think that we need something beyond the material. I have some romantic notions of a reemerged Catholic Church but at this time the Church seems more interested flooding Europe with migrants rather than acting in Europe’s interests.
I will point out however that since Johnson and Spencer are both Americans, that perhaps they should focus more on what we should be doing in America. I think the Europeans will figure out what’s best for them. You guys should have a talk about what to do in America. What are your ideas, both Utopian and realistic?
Northern Europeans are better than Mediterraneans at creating wealth. Northern Euros aren’t going to want to prop them up.
More importantly, Europeans from different parts of Europe have different ways of doing things. It may seem like small difference compared to non-Whites, but it exists nevertheless. Squeezing all of Europe into one political/financial/military organization creates unnecessary tensions which could be avoided in a looser and less homogeneous association.
“Squeezing all of Europe into one political/financial/military organization creates unnecessary tensions which could be avoided in a looser and less homogeneous association.” (leon)
But without some such union the possibility of nationalist wars between European states increases. It would be a tragedy if after Europe was freed of the globalist yoke, it started waring internally. There’s a balance that must be found between complete sovereignty and total integration.
I realize this is blasphemy to some White Nationalists, but I believe there is something beyond “the Jews” in the world that are just as much the enemies of Euro-kind (and all humans) than the Jews could ever be. Even after the Jewish power structure is neutralized, we must be watchful of forces manipulating nationalist energies against ourselves or using us to try to conquer the non-White world.
One of the keys to maintaining harmony between Europe’s nations will be collective projects. The exploration and colonization of space is the major one. The other is environmental clean up projects of the earth (like the Pacific garbage patch). Another would be a major effort to grow only organic foods or as near as possible to organic foods while outlawing GMOs.
But our major “great work” or responsibility is the cultivation of better people. And when I say “better people” I’m talking about bringing out the most positive character traits and virtues of the people (honor, humility, honesty, selflessness, discipline, manners, confidence, patience, inner peace, graciousness, appreciation of high culture, etc.). These character traits are what matters most. We could build an intergalactic empire, but if the people are selfish, materialistic, egocentric, nervous, envious, rapacious, duplicitous, etc then it could be potentially extremely dangerous. Even before we can start exploring the universe I think we need a few generations socialized under a “regimen of virtue.”
But back to the original point. We must find a way to maintain as much sovereignty as possible while having an apparatus in place that would prevent inter-Euro conflicts.
So in essence, we’re in basic agreement: European nations should have sovereignty, but should be encouraged to co-operate through common projects and political association. However a common currency and a European Army I think is just going much too far. No one will believe their state has any sovereignty in such a scenario, leading to tensions as I said. Moreover, I think the threat of intra-European war is little bit exaggerated by those seeking a common state. European nations haven’t avoided going to war with each other for the past sixty years simply because NATO or the EU have been standing over their shoulders. I think Europeans have learned from their past, and I don’t think even the most radically nationalist party in Europe wants to go to war with its neighbors. From an ethno-nationalist perspective, it simply never is worth it.
Indeed, what to do in America? Whither American nationalism? We are being edgy and circulating dank maymays, but have we ever dealt with the real difficulties of American identity? Not only do we have a two-party system that we cannot rival with a nationalist party, but our identity is tied to the Revolution, and therefore to the Constitution (which has been weaponized by Jews). All of our original Anglo high culture has been neutralized by Jew-produced mass culture (exaltation of the Outsider, raunch culture, negrolatry, et al). Most Americans identify more with their local sportsball teams than with any of their local historical heroes and artists.
Spencer’s solution seems to be that we are no longer Americans. This to me seems insane and futile, though I understand the impulse. But to me it seems too extreme, particularly considering that a lot of people are drawn to WN precisely because our ancestors have been here for centuries.
There is that old quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure” (Jefferson)– But we must understand this in its original elaboration. Sacrifice functions for the sake of the community, viz. in the sacred space of the local, the regional, or national level. Libertarians try to use this to insert their understanding of “liberty” into the American tradition. I think we need to focus on sacrifice– In which the private world is incessantly ruptured by the needs of the collective. Any social obligation is to serve society; sacrifice becomes duty; blood for liberty. And then we need to tie this notion of liberty/freedom directly to “free white men of good character”– Viz., the People, as it appears in all of our Founding documents. And the People always meant white people; it was just taken for granted.
Most Americans do not think of themselves as a People anymore; due to Jewish manipulation, they now tend to think of themselves as an idea or value, as interchangeable. Because they have entered this idea-thinking, we need to insert the People back into the dynamic. Even though the ethnostate we yearn for must not be located within the whole nexus of classical liberalism, we need to play on the lineage, the mythology, the genealogy of the Revolution, the Founders, etc., to really capture American identity.
It seems we’re all in basic agreement that Europeans of all ethnicities need to have a higher understanding of themselves as White Europeans but that doesn’t mean they have to stop being the ethnicity that they are. In other words you’re an Englishman because you’re a white European. As an aside this is the only way to ultimately neutralize the insufferable arguments by POC’s born in a particular European nation that just because they’re born in Germany, that makes them German. No POC, Germans are White Europeans and you’re not, you don’t get to join the club. I’ll just say by way of wrapping up that overcoming ethnic squabbles does not mean that you’ll lose your respective ethnic identities and we Euro-Americans in the Alt-right don’t want you too, I certainly don’t. Cheers.
Ike.
I think Spencer brings a lot if interesting ideas to the table, but I was glad to finally hear someone in his league confront him directly about his vision for a Pan-European superstate. If our main goal is to restore and protect the integrity of Europe, I don’t see what a European superstate can accomplish that a European alliance cannot. The truth is that the native European population is actually quite diverse in a good way, and the way to preserve that diversity is by preserving each nation’s sovereignty. This IS nationalism, and it’s what WE stand for. It was nice to hear the rest of the panelists generally agree with Greg on this issue.
I had high hopes for this show but I think there were too many guests for it to flow and there is nothing significantly new enough to chew over. It was more or less everybody agreeing apart from the interaction between Greg and Richard over what future European states might look like. I guess in an ideal world European states would have their own historic national, cultural and ethnic identities but would also be sufficiently conscious and cooperative towards an understanding of a White European identity ( a kind of ‘virtual state’), especially where their interests are threatened due to non-European forces. I think to some extent that is happening naturally through the immigration crisis.
Agree with Greg’s appeal that this movement needs more active funding. We all need to put our money where our mouth is and support work like Greg’s, Richard’s and the other guests on the show.
I’ll second that about there being too many guests on the show. It works best with a max of 2, maybe 3 guests. I still thought it was a good discussion though.
Spencer has no self-awareness. He attacks ethno-nationalism yet repeats petty Russian nationalist talking points about Ukraine. Is he aware that Ukrainians of all political stripes see themselves as a part of European civilisation whereas Russians, especially the pro-Putin crowd, seem to embrace this Eurasianism nonsense? Russia doesn’t get along with any European neighbours, other than Belarus, and even there they seem to be getting fed up with Russian chauvinism. I disagree with the proEU sentiment in Ukraine and I’m hoping they are never allowed in but based on Spencer’s own European trans nationalism shouldn’t he be more sympathetic to them and hostile to Russia? His hatred for Ukrainians seems personal.
Russia doesn’t have very good relations with Belarus, they are rather force to cooperate with each other.
Your ruminations here have the same flaw as Richard’s: you are not thinking about how you can get from here to there. Explain to me how you are going to get the Serbs and Croats back under the same government without initiating the next European war.
Brought to mind by the ~5mins preceding 146mins: Bowden talking about the urge to rebel, and the erotic and natural energy of the right. If you haven’t heard it yet I envy you, listen to the last 10 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDGWr8kMBk8&t=1h9m35s
You know, an alt-right artist should keep their eye open for these natural, deep moments in ordinary art, and try to expand on them in his own art.
It occurs to me that Blake’s ‘Proverbs of Hell’ are of good fashy spirit – ‘No bird soars too high if it soars on its own wings’, ‘Plow under the bones of the dead’, ‘One law for the lion and the ox is oppression’, ‘Exuberance is Beauty’. And others.
BTW Greg, in case you’re monitoring this, any chance you’ll do another run of DVDs of Bowden’s speeches?
I just ordered 10 more copies of the Bowden set. I will announce when they are available.
Thanks.
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