Wolves Among Sheep
An Interview with Max Ribaric & Davide Maspero

2,845 words

Great people doing great things. If you are interested in the most radical and controversial music, buy a well-written book about NSBM, written by two experts, Max Ribaric and Davide Maspero.

Someone likes dance music because they like to dance, someone likes gothic music because it’s in tune with their soul. In the past, the people of Mayhem wanted to make the most sinister music in the world. That dream didn’t stick, but over the years it evolved into a whole genre of extreme black metal. Within this genre there are people who want to make the most rebellious music against the modern world and question its dogmas. I consider NSBM to be the music that most angers and subverts the modern anti-white world and its values. Many bands play NSBM surely just for its shock value, and yes it is the most controversial thing a metal band can do. Some bands take this genre as an outlet for their CDs, but you can find some sincere treasures in this genre. It takes real courage to play NSBM and it takes a lot of courage to publish a book about NSBM from other than leftist moralistic positions. Thanks for an academically accurate book without the progressive drivel.

In the interview we discussed the very layered NSBM phenomenon, the two authors’ new book on hatecore, humorous experiences, Nicolas Goodrick Clark, Michael Moynihan, their project Occident Congress, black metal studies, and the spiritual dimension of NSBM.

***

Ondrej Mann: I read various books about black metal – Black Metal: Evolution of the Cult, Lords of Chaos, The Devil’s Cradle, Black Metal: European Roots & Musical Extremities and several others. But only your book covers NSBM in detail. How did you come to this topic and the idea to make it into a book?

Davide Maspero: The idea for the book came from the guys at Tsunami Edizioni, a publishing house specializing in hard&heavy music books, which had already brought to Italy the seminal “Lords of Chaos” by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. As music enthusiasts and concertgoers, we often found ourselves talking about black metal, its branches and possible political affiliations, discovering that it is not so easy to apply labels or define an idea. Especially in such an extreme field, where excess and ambiguity are a stylistic hallmark.

This impromptu exchange led to the idea of a book devoted entirely to NSBM, a phenomenon that the publishing industry had never considered as a whole. We took some time to assess the feasibility of the project, to sound out a few contacts and rummage through the archives. We finally accepted the proposal, working on Wolves Among Sheep for the next 3 years or so.

Max Ribaric

OM: Did anything surprise you when you were looking for information and writing the book?

DM: In short: the spread of the phenomenon. It was a well-known fact that certain themes were compatible with the essence of black metal, but that a sub-genre carrying such a radical idea would spread to every latitude, in territories that we did not think could be particularly receptive, that was a surprise. Especially since in many countries National Socialism was declined and adapted to local traditions, resulting in odd, and sometimes unlikely, mixtures.

Australia, South and Central America, even Southeast Asia, have spawned some of the most extreme groups we have encountered. Partly because of a shock tactic that is inherent to extreme metal, partly because Hitler and National Socialism (but more generally all forms of nationalism) have taken on a symbolic value in the battle that pits individual local identities against the modern/capitalist world that is advancing in those areas as well.

As Italian historian Giorgio Galli has written: “The younger generations may end up seeing in the Führer the ‘great rebel,’ the Lucifer who challenged the God of cultural homogenization and brainless consumerism”. Perhaps a somewhat simplistic statement, but certainly truthful.

OM: Is there any methodology to find out if a band plays NSBM?

DM: This is a far from trivial question, and there is no exhaustive answer since NSBM is an umbrella term, with jagged outlines, and much depends on the observer’s point of view. For the most upstanding defenders of political correctness, any element that can be traced back to the war period is enough to set off alarm bells. Likewise, references to paganism or any form of patriotic pride are seen as suspect. Having shared the stage with an ideologically ambiguous group is enough to be accused of “collaborationism.” If we relied on these selection criteria, the number of NSBM bands would be enormous.

A number that would, on the other hand, drop dramatically if we took into consideration only those bands that self-describe as NSBM, removing all doubt, such as Der Stürmer.

Between these two extremes there is a vast gray area made up of bands that draw heavily from the cultural and esoteric environment of National Socialism for the most diverse reasons. Then there are bands whose members have an overt worldview but this does not flow into their work (a case in point might be Burzum, which it would be incorrect to call NSBM).

It is apparent how it is not easy at all to make distinctions, and in a way that is fine. This frenzy to attach the NSBM label to this or that band is a recent practice, especially in vogue among modern black metal inquisitors who have a need to compile proscription lists.

OM: Why do national socialists make music and not something else? For example, painting, architecture, brewing, museums or stock trading? And why did they choose black metal as their genre?

Max Ribaric: I am sure that people of proven National Socialist beliefs can be employed in the most disparate fields (perhaps without their political persuasions being necessarily in the public domain), but to this day music remains one of those places where it is still possible to express and spread almost any kind of ideological message in a direct and effective way. It is no coincidence that, in strictly political terms, certain contemporary music has also played an excellent propaganda and recruitment role for several decades now, both on the Right and the Left.

Black metal is not the only genre that has embraced NS ideology (just think of RAC and certain identitarian folk music), but in a way I think that we have witnessed a natural alchemy: we are talking about a scene made up almost entirely of white kids who are resistant to the system. A proud youth who don’t abide the distractions of the modern world.

OM: Who first coined the term NSBM and defined this genre?

MR: Let us begin by saying that NSBM was born as a reaction to the “normalization” of black metal that literally exploded in the early 90s. In 1995 the Australian combo Spear of Longinus employed the term “Nazi Occult Metal” to describe their first demo, and around the same time (the year is 1996) Funeral from France described their music as “Black National Socialist Metal.” The first acknowledgement of the acronym NSBM can be traced back to the compilations called “The Night and the Fog”: three volumes released respectively in 1999, 2003 and 2007 where we can find the coordinates that will validate the term NSBM for the years to come.

Davide Maspero

OM: Sexuality, perversion, fetishism are frequent in black metal. Are these things also in NSBM?

DM: Basically, no. Each black metal sub-genre, with the inevitable exceptions, relies on a rather recognizable symbolic/thematic background. Apart from the obvious political backdrop, NSBM inherits some pivotal elements of the more traditional black metal (Nordic myth, paganism, rejection of monotheistic religions, fascination with wilderness) but discards others. In particular, the more unabashedly satanic imagery – often emphasized by the topics you mentioned, and devoted to the exaltation of the most dissolute aspects of man in opposition to the current morality – rarely finds a place in the arsenal of NSBM bands.

OM: In black metal there are often occult motifs and concerts are conceived as a magical ritual. Are there any occult, spiritual NSBM bands?

MR: As explained in our book, NSBM is not a monolith and there are many bands with different attitudes and nuances. There is room for explicitly political bands, but in most cases the NS ideology is declined in occult, sacral and/or spiritual terms. So yes, there are several bands that we could call bearers of a so-called spiritual NSBM. Referring to your description of “concerts conceived as a magical ritual”, I am reminded of the performances – which we have witnessed – of Russian bands Moloth and their side-project called Adolfkvlt: the stage is set up as a real altar and the concerts turn into a mystical experience.

OM: I like the fact that you used primary sources when you wrote the book. I mean, you used the UGBM & NSBM zine a lot. Were you surprised by anything in these zines? Which NSBM & UGBM zines did you find most interesting and of the highest quality?

DM: Relying on fanzines was both a necessity and a choice. A necessity because NSBM has its roots in a pre-Internet era, so it was a must to track and use that material as a source. Many of the bands we talk about never made it out of the underground and never found their way into mainstream magazines or webzines. Most of the time, records aside, the only written accounts that can shed light on the ideology of the protagonists are to be found in some old-school photocopied magazine.

But it was also a deliberate choice, as I said, in order to depict an authentic picture of the atmosphere of that period. Back then the attitude was very different, and it is apparent in the juvenile statements of many of the musicians involved. Black metal, as a whole, was a relatively young phenomenon and it still had that rebellious, anti-system momentum that nowadays – almost forty years after its inception and with all the commercial implications that have taken over – has inevitably faded.

There are plenty of relevant fanzines, quite often actual goldmines of information and insights (in times when one could not simply open Wikipedia). Starting with the iconic Slayer Magazine, also Nordic Vision, Petrified Zine, Imhotep, Moondance, to name the first few that come to mind.

On the other hand, among the more strictly NSBM zines, it is impossible not to mention Wallachian Tyrant, Strength Through War, Hatemonger, and Dark Blaze, which have been fundamental for us. Although it should be pointed out that these zines covered black metal as a whole, including but not limited to NSBM.

OM: Did you experience any funny stories while collecting the material and writing the book? Can you share this story with readers?

MR: I vividly remember when I contacted the lead singer of an Eastern European group asking his permission to publish a photo of him in the book. In response I received an e-mail in broken English saying something like: “Use the photo, I kill you”, so I told him that since I did not have his permission, the photo would not be printed. A few days later he wrote back explaining there had been a misunderstanding, and what he meant was: “I would kill to have that photo of me published in your book!”
Also, I cannot avoid mentioning a Belgian band (which is also featured in the book) who – because of a glaring typo – dedicated their album to “Wafers SS”.

OM: How did you manage to contact Michael Moynihan and get him to write you a foreword? What do you admire about this writer and musician?

MR: Michael has been a good friend for a very long time. Personally, our first contacts go back to the second half of the 90s: the first time we met in person was during the Indo-European Sacrifice Tour of Blood Axis, in late 1998. Our first book, published as Occidental Congress in the spring of 2008, is called “Day of Blood” and it is the only existing biography focusing on the life and works of Michael Moynihan. Moreover, Davide has done the artwork for the Blood Axis album “Ultimacy” (2011) as well as the cover and layout for the prestigious tome “Wotan’s Awakening” (2018), released by Michael’s publishing house, Dominion Press. The reason we asked him to write the foreword to our book is because we think there is a kind of continuity between the facts narrated in his “Lords of Chaos” and what we wrote in Wolves among Sheep. The first edition of “Lords of Chaos,” dating back to 1998, closes right around the time when NSBM began to emerge and make its way within the black metal scene, and that is where we pick up the narrative in Wolves Among Sheep. That is why we thought Michael would be the best person to introduce our work to the English-speaking audience.

OM: I’m glad you’re writing other books. Could you introduce your new book Hatecore Connection to the readers?

DM: Wolves Among Sheep ended with a brief insight into the work of some leading names in American hatecore. It was a way of casting a glimpse into radical scenarios akin to NSBM, at least in terms of topics. In all honesty, we believed there was not much to be said on the subject, and that short chapter would cover the topic. But as it often happens, when you plunge into research, things turn out to be more complex than anticipated.

Scanning mail orders and reading interviews, we noticed that the National Socialist Hardcore acronym was popping up more and more frequently. The seeming contradiction in terms – if we consider the roots of hardcore that we all know – motivated our curiosity, and we began to test the waters to see if there was enough material to outline a book on the topic. Early feedback was beyond encouraging, and the good reputation of Wolves Among Sheep opened more than one door for us. We knew from the start that NSBM and NSHC are two very different but closely related genres, so much so that we could consider them two sides of the same coin. Hatecore Connection thus came about as a natural companion to the previous book. Unlike NSBM, which has a more widespread distribution, NSHC stands on three basic pillars: America, Germany and Italy. We started precisely from this geographical subdivision, and then delved into more marginal realities that have emerged over the years.

OM: Do you plan to continue writing books, what topics would you like to work on?

MR: All the activities we are involved in (writing, producing and publishing) flow into our “apocalyptic think tank” called Occidental Congress. To date, we have focused on industrial culture and neofolk (Day of Blood), NSBM (Wolves Among Sheep) and NSHC (Hatecore Connection), but we have also edited old and obscure, forgotten books (such as La Distruzione Del Mondo dating back to 1948) and produced cult records (such as Boslide/Svart Jugend’s “Del fare di Sartre la nostra puttana”). We don’t follow a preset agenda; if anything, we wait for “the right thing at the right time” to cross our path. So far, it has always worked.

OM: Black metal studies is a relatively recent phenomenon, because black metal is a complex, versatile and intellectual genre. Do you have any experience with black metal studies? What do you think about this phenomenon?

DM: In the realm of extreme music, black metal was one of the last genuine subcultures to emerge almost four decades ago. Beyond its undoubted musical merits, black metal has its own cultural frame of reference, it has established an aesthetic trend, its own language and worldview – however chaotic and patchy it may be. Therefore, it is not surprising that once it has taken root, it has become a subject matter (even the Norwegian government now recognizes it as a sort of cultural heritage).

We have had the opportunity to read some academic studies or articles that try to analyze the genre. However, I think that using political and sociological categories or, more generally, an overly academic approach often leads off course.

I find it more useful to draw on first-hand sources, which are not lacking today. In this regard, the work done recently by Tero Ikäheimonen (with “The Devil’s Cradle”) or the admirable, informative work carried out by the zine Bardo Methodology, are – in my opinion – invaluable for anyone who wishes to better understand black metal and its many facets.

OM: Did you ever meet Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke and did his books Black Sun and The Occult Roots of Nazism influence your writing?

MR: No, we have not had the opportunity to meet Goodrick-Clarke personally, but his works are an integral part of our cultural background. One of the first chapters of Wolves Among Sheep (titled “Satan-Jugend”) is specifically devoted to the cultural and esoteric background from which the vast majority of the NSBM scene later drew heavily, and Goodrick-Clarke’s writings are among the referenced books. After all, if deprived of its political-spiritual component, black metal of NS imprint would lose much of its power and significance.