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Counter-Currents Radio Podcast No. 23 
Greg Johnson Interviews Mark Dyal, Part 2

67:57 / 150 words

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Transcript here

Dr. Mark Dyal is an American scholar and writer. He has an M.A. in black studies and a Ph.D. in anthropology. His dissertation is on Italian “Ultras” — soccer hooligans and skinheads — focusing on their “agonistic” subculture and its roots in Italian fascism; in Counter-Enlightenment thinkers like Friedrich Nietzsche, Julius Evola, and Georges Sorel; and in the indigenous European resistance of globalization, liberalism, and immigration.

Topics include:

  • His experiences in Rome living with and studying Italian Ultras
  • Georges Sorel
  • The political potential of the Italian Ultras
  • Casa Pound
  • Carlo Petrini and Slow Food
  • Race
  • The nature of the North American New Right as an intellectual movement
  • Absolute and relative knowledge
  • Evola and Traditionalism
  • Future writing projects
  • Giambattista Vico
  • Vitalism



  1. Posted September 28, 2012 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    Great interview, but there is some breaks in the audio towards the end.

  2. Jacques Vendée
    Posted September 28, 2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Another great interview.

    Interesting and unexpected discussion of the slow food movement. It is the impulse in white people toward this type of thing that needs to be channeled. It is the innate drive toward ancestral tradition struggling to dig itself out of the grave before all the air runs out. Unconscious racial consciousness.

    • Posted September 28, 2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

      Slowfood demonstrates that one need not be overtly “political” in order to create a cultural impulse that strengthens the people’s resolve to self-awareness. Unfortunately, it is too perfectly suited to Italian culinary and consumptive traditions to be of much value here. We need to start from a deeper substratum, as the Italians’ commitment to localism and local tradition, is what we lack. This works against unfettered Capitalism in many ways.

      One of the most interesting is that, despite being 20 minutes from the sea, “seafood” is more or less absent from Roman cuisine. Why? One eats fish within sight of the ocean. Think about that the next time you’re in a Red Lobster in Iowa. One eats what is at hand.

      This is why culinary traditions vary from one place to the next, even when only 1 kilometer apart. This is also why these types of cultural movements succeed in Italy – because the people are already convinced of the value of their own form of life; one that predates Capitalism, democracy, egalitarianism, and the mental enslavement of “discrimination” (i.e., Lucca banning “ethnic” restaurants in its town center).

      My wife and I went to Bologna while we were living in Rome. We showed up at our pastry/coffee shop after two days’ absence. When the barista noted our return, we told him of our culinarily designed visit to Bologna. “Why would you go to Bologna?” he asked. “To eat!” we replied. He just rumpled his face and shook his head, as if to say, why would you leave Rome to eat that disgusting food? He, like many others we met, was in his late-30s, and had yet to visit Bologna. Some say parochial! I say an extraordinary love of one’s own.

      • uh
        Posted September 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

        Much food for thought (hey-ohhh!). I would like to put Slowfood ideas into practice, but I’ve reverted to strict paleo to keep my weight down. Today lightly ghee-basted filet mignon from GINO’S ITALIAN MARKET over wood chips / dried palm fronds on the grill.

        “Some say parochial! I say an extraordinary love of one’s own.”

        Ah, this begs for variation. Some say fascist! I say …

      • Jacques Vendée
        Posted September 28, 2012 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

        I think there is a constant drive toward traditional modes of living–it is not just Counter Currents readers who feel these things. If we are right about our concept of tradition–and we are–even the most devoutly braindead has the same core drives that we have. The problem is connecting the dots for them.

        The yuppie couple at the farmer’s market is seeking something more than the freshest produce. They are seeking a connection to a world of tradition. They are craving it–most likely without realizing it. We need to make the connection for them between an extraordinarily great pasta dinner to the memory of their cute Italian grandmothers and then to a vanishing white tradition, vanishing white values. What was special about her? Where did that kind of person go and why? What happened to the Italian-owned corner market? Why can’t I get fresh local basil as easily as I can get a dose of pink slime and sugar water from McDonalds?

        There is a jarring difference between the world farmer’s markets and the world of Korean-owned liquor stores, for example, which, if highlighted and contextualized, just might provide a space into which we can slip. And as we all know, once the blinders come off they are off for good.

      • Jaego
        Posted September 29, 2012 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

        Ah, the City-State, Italy’s old standby, and why she was so late to the Nation State. I don’t criticize by merely ask how such localities will stand against the New World Ordure? The Greek ones couldn’t stand against Alexander or later Rome. The Roman ones did unite against Hannibal – he thought the Latins would side with him. Big mistake.

        That is our question: how to regain autonomy yet defend ourselves. The Nation State is too big yet too small. We need simultaneously the Imperium and the City State. Dante was right but too soon/late. He wanted an Empire just as the Nation State was emerging.

        What will unite us into becoming an Ummah or Super Tribe – yet without losing local flavor and freedom? The Muslims have a strong clan/tribal structure that serves them in this. Also ethnic pride persists in spite of Islam – deny as they will in front of us. But let any kafir hurt any Muslim and they will all unite – as quarreling dogs unite when the wolf appears.

  3. Posted September 28, 2012 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Another great interview. I was going to make a suggestion in a post but I think I’ll just make it a comment instead.

    You both talked a lot about the idea of an Academy of the New Right–a kind of Rogue Academy. I definitely see that happening here — it’s one of the things that initially impressed me about Counter-Currents. You’d have these esoteric subjects discussed by smart writers, but without the sugary slime of some porky Marxist dyke all over everything.

    I’ve seen some “philosopher x for beginners” pieces, and CC is getting more into podcasting now.

    One of the things that is happening right now is the “open university” — classes from say, Stanford, that you can download from iTunes, on any number of topics. Now, I don’t know nuthin bout no schoolin myself, but you fellers with PhDs could probably put together a comprehensive series of lectures on topics near and dear to you, with reading lists and so forth, for the young minds who are just investigating. Counter-Currents is a journal, but it could also provide complete courses. Maybe fund each one with a kickstarter. Keep em focused and tight.

    I could be bothered to listen to a succinct 4 episode series of lectures on say Introduction to Julius Evola 101, because what college–anywhere–would offer such a class?

    Maybe break beyond the podcast model and delve into the educational model?

    Just an idea I had while listening to this.

    • uh
      Posted September 28, 2012 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

      A young Mexican woman I had listen to the interview expressed interest in what Mark had to say about himself and his worldview, but disappointment at the name-dropping Mark and Greg did toward the end of the first part, without considering listeners who don’t know just why Evola, to take everyone’s favorite example, might be worth reading.

      • Greg Johnson
        Posted September 28, 2012 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

        We can make everything on this site elementary, dear uh. Perhaps she will take it as a challenge to learn more.

    • JustAWhiteMom
      Posted September 28, 2012 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

      That is a great idea, Mr. Donovan. Many of us are generally educated but not at the PhD level and that would be very useful for us folks who got the usual Leftist undergraduate education.

  4. Dominion
    Posted September 28, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Nietzschean philosophy from Mark Dyal? Definitely a podcast to listen to! Many of us would also love to hear more stories and experiences from your time in Rome. Particularly the time spent alongside the Ultras and the neofascist (perhaps one can even just say Roman) spirit they represent. The methods through which they communicate their message to the populace is very well done and varied and the new right and İdentitarian elements in North America (limited as they are) would benefit greatly from hearing of them. There are movements in many cities on this continent of a localist nature. The message of İdentity in relation to a city and place instead of *just* Whiteness may be easier to communicate in these environments.

  5. Stronza
    Posted September 29, 2012 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    The American slow food movement is to my mind an affectation of hip urbanites. I recall hearing an interview with one of the early proponents of slow food; she said that she had to go all the way to Italy to get good food “because there is no good food in America”.

    I would tell her, “There is very much good food here, and it’s as slow as slow can be. First you get a piece of land, doesn’t have to be large. Then you dig it up by hand, no rototillers here, amend it as necessary with natural organic matter if needed, preferably something you gathered yourself, like wild animal manure, just to make things interesting and so very slow, since that is apparently terribly important to you, Ms. Gourmet Slow Food Foodie. You plant some seeds and take good care of them as they grow. This is all so slow and hard work, too. One fine day, some of your crops are ready to be harvested and eaten! You do this, and now you have your true Slow Food! No need to reinvent the wheel, Ms. Hipster. You can do all this without running away to Italy.”

    • Jacques Vendée
      Posted September 29, 2012 at 1:21 am | Permalink

      If not wanting to be poisoned by Monsanto is hip then consider me Jack Kerouac.

      • Stronza
        Posted September 29, 2012 at 2:36 am | Permalink

        Golly, no one said anything like that. Monsanto is considered the worst company in the entire world, by the way.

        I myself collect deer shit for my garden, not to mention varieties I can’t identify. Maybe I need to hire a tracker to help me with this.

  6. daniel
    Posted September 29, 2012 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    There is definitely something to be said for the Italian custom (Southern Italian, anyway) of pranza time: the family has a big meal in the afternoon followed by a nap.

    This organizes the day around the family and slows down the pace of the day for that purpose indeed.

    The pranza time doesn’t only organize life around family but it also organizes life around the question of priorities – how and for whom one lives, as opposed to the business of life.

    Moreover, work in the morning and in the evening is not only a better way for me, I think that I am in fact, evolved for this.

    …slow food:

    For pranza, my grandmother, and the women from her village, would roll cavatelli (pronounced “gavadeel” in true, local dialect) by hand, with their thumb to be exact. This is by far the best pasta that I’ve ever had. It has riccotta (pronounced rigaut) cheese in the dough and is light and incredibly delicious pasta – served with a simple tomato sauce flavored with pork and sweet Italian sausages; it is topped with dollops of wet ricotta and dry ricotta is grated onto the pasta and sauce.

    One of the major reasons that I did not decide to live in Italy after abandoning the US is because I am too bothered by the instance of an Italian woman with a Black (pronounced moolenyan), infrequent though it was. And though there were some nods and winks of approval for me, there was also some indifference and antagonism of me in my “street activism.” I found it hard to control my temper. It upset me too much.

  7. daniel
    Posted September 29, 2012 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    correction: decided not to live in Italy

    I said, “why I did not decide”

  8. Donar van Holland
    Posted September 29, 2012 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    I was rather fascinated by the suggestion of Greg Johnson that the golden age of Evola, where everybody knows his place in a correct hierarchical order, is in fact the “primitive” stage, not when technology and social institutions are at the peak of their development. Are vitality and civilization two contrary forces? Or could there be circumstances where they go hand in hand? Does Fascism offer such an interplay of these forces? Is weekend football hooliganism a correct partner for an overcivilized word?

    • Jaego
      Posted September 29, 2012 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

      There needs to be an artful balance to maintain peak vitality. I’ve always been fascinated by science fiction that portrayed advanced civilizations that seem at first glance to be primitive. They would have advanced machinery and science tucked away, but chose to live simply on a day to day level. Why? Much healthier and more pleasurable – as long as the other stuff was in reserve.

      Of couse we need Cultural Projects as well – William James’ MEOW or Moral Equivalents of War.
      In Olaf Stapledon’s Future Humanities, the young went to live on a wild continent for a couple of years with absolutely nothing. Many died but the ones that lived came back matured, hardened, and bonded with each other forever.

      • Posted September 30, 2012 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

        Jaego, I don’t know if you write for Counter-Currents as well, but I would be fascinated to read an essay on science fiction such as you describe. I have read Olaf Stapledon and liked him very much, although I wasn’t familiar with the book you described.

      • Jaego
        Posted October 2, 2012 at 2:55 am | Permalink

        John: read Stapledon’s “Last Men and First Men”, there are 16 or so future races of men described. The most noble races of future men, the 5th and the 16th practice the wild continent initiation for the young and take great pleasure in the primitive throughout their lives. As Stapledon describes them, they are simultaneously more animal and human they we the First Men.

    • Dominion
      Posted September 29, 2012 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      The problem is most likely that these vital forces are simply repressed instead of being developed in a way which contributes to the development of man on all his levels, not just the ‘polite’ ones. To everything its place; Romans had both high-class cultured society and the bloodthirsty atmosphere of the arena, and more often than not the two went together.

      I would say though that in actual practice, most fascist governments sought to control strong and violent passions in their citizens just as much as modern liberal states, except when they were needed for war. The futurist “Manifesto of Lust” is difficult to reconcile with the repressive attitude of Franco’s Spain toward sex, for example…which ironically led to higher promiscuity among the Spanish peasants themselves.

      • Jaego
        Posted September 29, 2012 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

        Yes, that’s the problem: like blocking flowing water and pretending that it wont flood somewhere else. And then being amazed when it does.

        I’ve heard traditionally the Chruch didn’t outlaw prostitution for this reason. Perhaps the Amish have the right idea. Let the young run wild and then decide if they want that or to control themselves in society. Likewise my idea of the primitive for the young: they get to see what humanity is without restraint – and simultaneously, are forced to use their vitality to survive. The ones that opt to return to Civilization would do so well integrated.

      • selbstgebildete
        Posted September 29, 2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

        Franco was far from fascist.

  9. Roissy Hater
    Posted September 30, 2012 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Mark Dyal is a great asset to CC, I’m very impressed.

    We need more intellectuals like this who, from my outside opinion, are ‘cultured thugs’. The white male archetype has be deconstructed in the West, because its the only threat to the status quo of liberal consumerism and humanitarian nonsense.

    A man with sharp mind and the muscle to go with it is the greatest threat our enemies could ever dream of.

    • Posted October 3, 2012 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

      Thanks to everyone for the positive comments. I’ve just gotten around to checking the responses and was initially horrified to find 25 awaiting my embarrassed perusal.

      The comments on slow and “italian” food are certainly interesting and it does seem a great(!) topic through which we may attract attention. I surely hope the yuppies at the farmer’s market are instinctively looking for us; I’m usually too dismissive to find out. That old saying, the fastest way to a man’s heart is through his stomach, just might work for us. I worry, though, that teaching today’s children about these things (in America) will end up sounding like, “when I was a boy, we walked through the snow without shoes . . .”.

      My idol Jack Donovan has, once again, discerned something about the NR that I feel keenly: that we can actually be a university of sorts. And, going along with my muscular approach to life, ours could ultimately be of far more value than a standard B.S. (pun intended). To put it crudely, most people place greater value on something for which they’ve bled than merely bought. The respect of one’s peers, when they are true peers and of the sort that will fight tooth and nail for our people, is far more valuable than any purchased accolades. I am learning that everyday.

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