Counter-Currents
658 words
For years, I have argued that our mostly online and anonymous movement is more likely to develop into a large and formidable real world community if we follow two basic rules. First, everyone gets to choose his own level of explicitness and involvement. Second, everybody else has to respect those decisions, including people’s decisions to keep their identities secret.
Doxing refers to publishing private information about an individual — his real name, his home address, his school, his employer, etc. — in order to cause him harm. Doxing is a favored tool used by the Left to expose White Nationalists to persecution from the system and criminal antifa elements.
In recent months, however, doxing has been used by movement people to settle scores with movement rivals. To give two recent examples: Iron March members were trying to dox American Vanguard members, and Twitter’s Baked Alaska recently doxed Twitter’s Bunker Smith (who is a Trumpian civic nationalist, not a White Nationalist). Simply sharing people’s pen names among fellow movement people can cause huge problems. But doxing is far worse, because it makes such private information available to the public at large.
This has to stop. The White Nationalist movement has grown tremendously in the internet age because the web allows our people to conceal our identities from those who would persecute us for our beliefs. But our movement cannot continue growing online, much less transition to real world meetups, without a commitment to protecting people’s identities from doxing. The recent doxings indicate that we need to make this principle more explicit and back it up with punishments for those who violate it.
Doxing fellow movement people strikes at the anonymity and trust that are the foundations of our movement. Therefore, I want to propose the following rules for dealing with doxers.
- Any movement person who doxes another movement person must suffer the social equivalent of a death sentence: they must be completely shunned. They must be expelled from all movement organizations, barred from all movement gatherings, and blocked on all social media.
- Their friends must be forced to choose sides. It is no deterrent if doxers are shunned by strangers. They must be disavowed and shunned by their friends. And if their friends stick with them, they must be shunned in the same way.
- These principles do not apply to the retaliatory doxing of doxers, whether they come from the system or the movement. On the one hand, retaliatory doxing is both just punishment and an excellent deterrent. On the other hand, it could initiate an escalating cycle of retaliation that could be harmful to the movement overall. So, although I cannot condone retaliatory doxing, I understand it, and I cannot treat it as an offense on the same level as initiating doxing.
- One of the virtues of instituting a policy of shunning doxers is to give victims both justice and solidarity and prevent such cycles of retribution.
But what if you personally like a doxer? What if he is presently an ally in the ever-shifting net wars? Simple: you should choose better friends and allies. Sure, so-and-so might only dox the people he is mad at. But what makes you think he will never fall out with you? What makes you think he will never attack your friends, your wife, or your employment?
No cause is more serious or sacred than White Nationalism. So we need to act like it. We think of ourselves as the legitimate leadership of our race. So we need to act like it. We should start thinking of ourselves as a government in exile. So we need to act like it. Today, that means establishing some basic rules and enforcing them with real consequences to the extent possible in our movement.
If you agree with this statement, I invite you to sign your name below. (Just post it in a comment.) If you have criticisms and suggestions, post them below as well.
Greg Johnson
74 comments
Ted Sallis: I agree with Greg 100% on this. This would be an excellent first step in “cleaning up” WN.
One of my fondest wishes is being able to speak my truth openly. One benefit of being doxxed is that people can speak openly, because there is nothing left to hide. There is significant power in using your own name & voice to speak. But this movement is not quite there yet, so we work anonymously.
Yes, but you do understand that when and how you become an explicit White Nationalist is not for other people to decide.
Agreed.
I made up my mind a long time ago that I’m never going to speak openly about these kind of things. Very rarely do I discuss my feelings and opinions with anybody in person. I especially see no advantage or good in outing myself to the hostilities of loud mouth idiots demanding answers to my political views. I am not like Richard Spencer or Milo who strives on attention, I cannot deal with being the center of anything and am not particularly good at public speaking. Even if it was perfectly acceptable to talk about these things in person, I don’t think I would. I’ve just never been a very outspoken person. I don’t like attention and I prefer not being bothered most of the time.
Most people who demand you “show yourself” just want to know who you are so they can try and lynch you anyway. They want to avoid the ideas and attack the person instead, but are frustrated at not knowing who the person is that they want to attack.
Agreed. With the following caveat – there must be absolute, cast iron proof that the accused actually is guilty of doxing. Wild accusations without proof cast more doubt upon the accuser than the accused; also spreads paranoia – which is what The Enemy wants.
Ditto Greg’s previous article on ‘Punching Right’, positive criticism of ‘others on the right’- fine; negative criticism and wild accusations without proof are a no-no, as they again play into The Enemy’s hands.
Most sensible people already tacitly follow these two guidelines regarding doxing and punching right, but it is helpful to have them articulated. We must accept that White people are incredibly varied and therefore require different methods to bring them into our Cause; so letting ‘a thousand flowers bloom’ is the only way. Senseless infighting over tactics, tastes and strategy, combined with childish nonsense over ego trips guarantee our failure. We’re in the great game now and we can’t afford to fail.
I agree. Doxing is a venomous practice. I have the greatest admiration of those with the courage and /or financial independence to work as explicit White Nationalists. However, at this stage in our movement (in Evola’s sense), this is not a viable option for most.
“Doxing” is a new word for me. It says nearly as much as “denouncing”. That is one of the worst behaviors possible.
I agree with Greg Johnson’s suggestions. People who cause harm in this manner to settle scores or to gain an advantage should be shunned.
If doxing is a crime, the alleged doxers should be exposed with evidence, not just mere allegations.
I’ve heard of the iron march doxing (though I’m not familiar with the exact individuals within iron march who were involved.) Who are these individuals? Their user names should be posted alongside this article, as if in a “wanted” poster. I can’t exactly shun them if I don’t know who to shun.
I’d also like to see Iron March as an institution formally challenged to condemn these individual doxers.
Finally, who is this Bunker Smith? As far as I know, Milo the Jew has threatened Baked Alaska’s mother. How do I know that Baked Alaska has not engaged in retaliatory doxing?
Serious crimes require serious evidence.
All that said, I “Tom” generally support the thesis of the article.
I think the doxed victim will know who did it. With this, counter-doxing could be undertaken.
Are we sure that everyone in the movement will be aware of who has doxed
whom?
Perhaps Counter-Currents could maintain a registry of doxers. An additional
advantage of this idea is that it allows people who have been “convicted” of
doxing to appeal.
On the other hand, a registry of this sort might expose Counter-Currents to
the risk of legal action. (I can’t say — I’m not a lawyer.)
There is also a problem of distinguishing between originating doxers and counter-doxors.
Date and time stamps?
AND THE WINNER OF 2016 IS… A CARTOON FROG? http://www.postcardsfromtraumaville.blogspot.com
Second
agree
Couldn’t agree more Greg.
Well said and well reasoned.
We can’t survive a long, protracted struggle if traitors are allowed to operate with impunity. I disagree with many people in this movement, but I am grateful for their activism. Live and let live and don’t forget people who violate this rule.
Agree 100%
Signed!
-pilleater
P.S: I hate doxers too. They will try and get me if I say anything bad. Your trust is my trust. I would only share information that has appeared online and direction people of interest to authority figures.
Since I cam out on this side, people have been trying to dox and throw bricks at me to. It was well worth it though 🙂
The goals of White Nationalism and those of posters on Ironmarch are completely separate, I wouldn’t equate them with your ‘movement’ but no one from Ironmarch doxxed anyone from AV – when is this disinfo going to stop being published?
While I completely agree with the expressed sentiments activists have to be aware that we not only live in a surveillance society but belong to an ethnic group in which many members have a hankering to “please teacher.” Therefore, spoken and written comments should be tailored for future exposure, border crossings and the occasional police road block – usually at Christmas and new Year! Or just be kind to women, children and animals and you’ll be fine.
I too agree with Greg 100% on this. Insofar as the real threat of doxing is the real (and not imagined) potential harm that can befall the doxee, especially those with families, it hurts our cause enormously. In the end, family trumps everything.
Doxing done by a fellow WN is particularly insidious, and is tantamount to aiding and abetting the steamroller that is Political Correctness. Until the shibboleth of Political Correctness is fully vanquished (or reduced to a marginalized threat), such ‘outings’ (whether carried out by WNs or, which is more likely to be the case, by SPLC-types) are a very real consideration that affects each individual to a greater or lesser degree, given his unique situation.
I second Sartor, who writes: “I have the greatest admiration of those with the courage and/or financial independence to work as explicit White Nationalists. However, at this stage in our movement (in Evola’s sense), this is not a viable option for most.”
Thanks to Greg for bringing this subject up and making it a priority.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. It is up to each person to decide how public they want to be.
Maybe a list of proven doxxers like the sjw list is needed.
I agree with Greg 100%.
Doubly on this: “We should start thinking of ourselves as a government in exile.”
Our mission is the most noble one in the 3000 year written historical European record- to save our people from demographic collapse, Islamization, and a host of evils unprecedented in history. All actions undertaken by those professing to such a mission should be of quality and seriousness matching its gravity.
Problems arise when we consider exactly who is protected by this code. For
example, does it protect a person who is pro-white but hostile to white
nationalism? (This may be an uncommon combination, but I don’t think it’s
far-fetched. Consider a person who thinks whites should organise to secure
their interests, but also does not favour any sort of repatriation or
territorial partition; and further, who thinks that non-white citizens
should have full legal equality and regards the contrary opinion with
repugnance.)
It seems to me that a precise definition of protected persons is important,
because of the following:
If we are not clear who is a protected person, then cases may arise where
some people shun a doxer, and others do not; and then the first group, by
the rule just quoted, will have to shun the second group.
Agree totally.
One of the things I resent the most with current government is that there are too many rules what you can and cant do. I certainly hope that one of the results of our movement is to abolish petty laws and get rid of useless officials. The proposed rule is common sense, it is already being practiced and shouldnt need to be put in writting. Each rule we adopt need to result in clear benefits that outweight the burden of having the rule. With all the drawbacks that you recognize yourself I am not sure if this rule justifies its existence.
Agreed. Please call me TG. I appreciate your website as you appeal to smarter readers, including females, of which I am one. I’ve read the greats, not that I would pretend to be on their level, but the writers you promote are the ones I’ve been attracted to. Hence, my being here often.
I hope this is not off topic, but too many WN websites are already shooting themselves in the foot by denigrating women as stupid/foolish and causing all the problems. It does become tiring. Talk about divisiveness! I was actually the one who woke up my better half to what is going on and it took 7 years to do that. 7 years! And not with stupid appeals to base instincts but with good arguments. This is what really wakes the smart white man up.
I have no idea what is going on vis-a-vis all this doxing. Milo vs Baked Alaska, what is that? A couple of homosexuals getting butt-hurt (pardon the pun) about a movement that seems to be simply about ego with them? Nonsense. We don’t need it because we have morals and ethics on our side. The only thing the “left” has is Tolerance, with a capital T. But in the end, how can you tolerate the intolerant? It will eat itself. Let’s hope we don’t do it before they do.
Totally agreed. Doxing also has nothing to do with the legitimate “punching right”
“This has to stop. The White Nationalist movement has grown tremendously in the internet age because the web allows our people to conceal our identities from those who would persecute us for our beliefs. But our movement cannot continue growing online, much less transition to real world meetups, without a commitment to protecting people’s identities from doxing. The recent doxings indicate that we need to make this principle more explicit and back it up with punishments for those who violate it.”
Signed.
Thanks Greg for this excellent leadership for this public self-obligation to this code of conduct. Anonymity is necessary in our situation of dissidence, and ever more people will join the cause when they are free to choose the level of their engagement.
Luckily, I didn´t even notice these latest doxing incidents but I´m not surprised. Many WN discussion threads are still full of death squad- and mass extermination aficionados, and “doxing” is right in line with the IQ 85 of this crowd who just destroy everything in their stupidity just like their fellows-in-IQ, the googles. Again I recognize Greg´s wisdom to foster a high-quality group of WNers as that will attract more high-quality people and only those will be able produce useful results.
I also second the concerns that Lothrop expressed.
Very sensible. I’m on board with this.
I agree with Greg Johnson 100 percent.
Carolyn Yeager is one individual who immediately comes to mind, whenever the topic of doxers comes up. This woman used to team up with Tanstaafl, who is one of the absolutely most brilliant, insightful, intelligent, well read and most entertaining and knowledgeable voices in the pro-White movement. Yeager, of course, was one of the original radio show hosts on the old and now, sadly defunct, Voice of Reason Broadcast Network and in those years, she did a show called The Heretics Hour and she focused primarily World War II and the history of Germany before, during and after the end of the war. Her show was very entertaining and educational.
Tanstaafl became one of her semi-regular guests and his contributions were always outstanding. Then, for some peculiar reason – Yeager decided to shift her focus and inject herself into the pro-White, White Nationalist movement – and she became what an old US Navy Chief Petty Officer who I once knew used to call a ‘shit stirrer’. Yeager stirred up so much division within the VOR broadcast network – spreading rumors, peddling petty gossip, attacking and belittling the other hosts on the network and spreading insinuations and accusations that served to cast doubt on the integrity and reputations of almost every spokesman in the pro-White movement
that the VOR network eventually was destroyed. Yeager had a particularly obnoxious obsession with attacking pro-Whites who chose to maintain their anonymity by using pseudo names and she appeared to be very determined to expose the identities of anyone who disagreed with her on any subject.
I can remember the debate going on at the time, where commenters who visited her website would point out that in the current anti-White climate – anyone who was dumb enough to use their real name ran the risk of having the left come after their employers and pressuring them to fire the individual who had posted something that was pro-White or politically incorrect. This meant that anyone who had a family and a wife and children to feed and care for had to take whatever precautions deemed necessary to protect their identities, or their children could wind up starving. This is a pretty serious matter, but Yeager seemed (or pretended to be) oblivious to this danger and would continue to spew criticisms at pro-White movement people who chose to protect their identities. Calling them cowards and making insinuations that sought to discredit them in one way or another.
Also, I remember someone asking Yeager a question once – where they pointed out that websites like hers and others within the pro-White online community often relied upon financial donations from their readers and listeners – and, if someone were to reveal their identity, and get fired from their jobs or careers – then would that not end their ability to donate money to their websites? Yeager never offered a reasonable response to that question – probably due to the fact that the answer to the question was beyond the range of her IQ.
Oh, and by the way. There is also the strong possibility that people within the pro-White movement who constantly criticize the practice of anonymity – could be enemy moles who have infiltrated our movement and who are working for the left by trying to lure people into revealing their identities – so the left can then try to ruin their lives by getting them fired from their jobs and then permanently blacklisted. This suspicion should always be considered when we encounter voices within the pro-White movement who persist in criticizing anonymity even after they have been made aware of the impeccable arguments that are made in defense of it.
At any rate, Greg Johnson is most certainly correct in his views on this topic. An article like this has been long overdue and I’m glad to see this question finally given the attention that it deserves .
I am on board with this, also.
Concerning Carolyn Yeager: there are other sufferers of the same syndrome. I think that they are people who have recklessly gone public and have had their careers and personal lives destroyed in the process. Fearing isolation, they have reached out to drag other people into the pit with them. Misery loves company. It is a desperate act, and we should recognize that anybody who is “out” and taking a lot of flak and naming names is someone who has gotten in over their head.
I do think that whomever chooses to out themselves must accept the consequences of doing so, and that they should be able to expect only private assistance and moral support from those of us who must remain in the shadows.
I also think that we should be generous in offering that kind of support.
Signed.
Agree, Greg. Definitely.
What? I heard a recording where it was AV that tried to dox Iron March people. Not the other way around.
I agree.
I agree 100%!
In addition to the penalties for intentional Doxing, I propose that there should also be penalties for Negligence and Dereliction of Duty.
NEGLIGENCE: For example, failing to alert an audience that was previously told that all press has left an event that there are in fact some enemy filmmakers present with cameras rolling.
DERELICTION OF DUTY: For example, failing to alert activists who have not yet arrived at an event hotel that the entire list of activists staying at that hotel has fallen into the wrong hands, especially when becoming aware of this fact before the activists have even stepped onto their international flights.
I would hope that the major donors behind a person committing these Movement crimes would be able to enforce some kind of discipline, and they must constantly groom alternative leaders to step forward in case the Offender fails to correct his behavior.
Professionally run National Liberation Movements always ensure that their true Leadership is never the same as the public face of the Movement. That also means, that preparations must be made in advance to ensure that a public face who is fired or otherwise punished will not have a list of true identities in his back pocket in case his desire for revenge is greater than his dedication to the cause.
The skillsets of a media provocateur are not those of organizers and strategists. Movements run by organizers and strategists who have not found their charismatic public persona fail to gain a following. Movements run by media provocateurs never rise above the personal needs and weaknesses of their leader. Successful movements need a public face who serves at the consent of the men behind the curtain and all involved must serve the cause; that is how successful leadership is organized.
There are few people with the seriousness of purpose and dedication that you have. I hope that every tendency of the Alt Right seriously considers and adopts your proposal.
I agree Dr. Johnson and thank you for the article. Patrick your points are very enlightening. This puts the recent controversies into proper perspective. These criticisms are much more understandable than the attacks based on content, i.e., hailing
Agree.
Completely agree. Infighting, often over nothing but egos and demented overly-accusatory thinking, leading to spiteful consequences like doxing are something that shouldn’t be tolerated anymore by the Right.
Yes, I agree and also appreciate Jez’s caveat.
I agree.
I agree. Punching to the right should be kept to a minimum. Disagreements and debate are fine, but trying to harm the ability of an ally from living their life peacefully should be shunned.
Agree
100% agree. Whatever you think of cernovich and the other altliters, Baked Alaska’s resort to doxing several unwitting organizers should decide the issue. First to dox must be first to go.
I completely agree with the article and the comments.
Agreed
Aye.
Does anyone have more information on Baked Alaska’s doxing of Bunker Smith?
Contact me at [email protected]
Agreed. Operational security is paramount. Also, each member needs to ensure that they are watching their own back. @RisenGhoul was recently outed because he got sloppy. Showing his face, shooting vids in identifiable locations, etc. Be your own advocate.
Agreed
Agreed.
The reason the New Left has succeeded so much is that they’ve had the good sense to cobble together riffraff from all sorts of groups. Surely the New Right can summon the foresight to maintain alliances for the greater benefit of the White race.
I agree.
If Michael Ravioli is in, then so am I. Mafiosi style cyber vendettas should not be tolerated.
Agreed.
Agree
I support this.
Also, don’t post pictures from irl meet ups unless you conceal member identities. It take me literally 10 to 15 seconds to blur out faces.
For anyone who may not know, “Baked Alaska” just did an AMA on reddit. In the comments, someone posted a long roll call of circumstantial evidence that on its face looks credible that “baked Alaska” is some form of hostile, disruptor or infiltrator aligned with the Jew Milo Yianannopolis. I’m not linking because I’m on my phone.
In addition to the absolute shunning of doxxers, the white nationalist alt right needs to develop more criteria to “screen” entryist hostiles with malicious intentions from the sincere people with evolving worldviews who are in the process of coming over but who are still somewhat confused on various issues.
Greg, you have been at PUBLIC Meetings at IHR, would posting pics of that event which you are in of that Event be “Doxing”?? Why so panoid about remaining in the “Closet”? Worried that your “Community” might get “butthurt”
Yes, of course it would be doxing. I doubt very seriously if ANYONE would attend meetings at IHR or AmRen or any other movement organization if they believed that people were roaming about taking their pictures for publication without their permission. I suggest you ask Mark Weber what he would do if people published photographs of people attending his meetings without their permission. Beyond that, I have never attended a “public” meeting of the IHR, where just anyone could walk in off the street, nor would I attend such a meeting, nor would most people in this movement attend such a meeting.
This movement will never work and grow unless everyone involved has the right to determine his or her own level of explicitness and involvement. I understand that you have various movement operations. This is your opportunity to declare whether or not you will respect the privacy of the people who associate with you, or if they are risking their jobs, families, social connections, etc. by having anything to do with you.
I personally don’t much read or listen to anons. I might enjoy and find informative some of their articles, but I don’t end up trusting it. I need to know about the person, see their face, and find their life story genuine. We have a lot of suspicious people who are here for psychological reasons who do NOT belong. And if people aren’t willing to attach their real names and faces to their work, maybe it isn’t that important to them? And how do others see that as an example? At best, it will attract more anons. I suppose it’s an intermediate step. I was impressed by KMAC, he invested enough time to write books (showing its important), he did not try to hide, and his intellectual journey is credible.
I guess most people just think their jobs, families, and social connections are more important that pleasing you, SteveP. By the way, is “P” your last name? Do you think that people would take you more seriously if you gave us your full name, address, and social security number?
WOW Greg, a response in private??? I think this conversation should be on the Board. IHR Meetings are PUBLIC, abiet by invite BUT full of cameras and Video and LOTS of pics are taken, YOU and I have been at, at least TWO, where you sold books at the back of the room. I have pics from BOTH. MAYBE I will post them. Happy New Year. You have made NO compelling case as to why you are so paranoid as to why an esteemed PHD like you are such an abject coward. You and many here agreeing with you said NOTHING when my wife was “Dox’d” and lied about and still is and when Yeager posted edited private emails, now the proverbial shoe is on the other foot and you want a “Code of Ethics”. Guess what, you can’t win a war by being a pussy. You either get out and fight and stay on your knees. Watch my blog for your Pic, coming soon when I get home from the Holiday break.
I am sorry to hear about you and your wife. I can’t pay attention to every bit of movement drama, much less take sides on it, and Carolyn Yeager has been on my ignore list for years. It is interesting, though, that being a victim of doxing does not make you more sympathetic to others. Instead, you think your bitterness licenses you to do things to others that you would not like to be done to you. I guess you are resigned to being a persona non grata at the IHR. But it is good, at least, that you are going on the record that anyone who associates with you in any way might regret doing so.
I didn’t want to sound as though I agree with doxing, but when people become belligerent personalities, it’s only a matter of time before these things happen. I’m not sure what the point is of maintaining this place as a consequence-free playground.
Agreed.
Agreed wholeheartedly. We are our Race’s leadership, army, and intelligence agency.
I agree with pretty much all that was said.
One issue with the American Vanguard vs Iron March doxxing I feel is that it is a maturity issue. The userbases seem young (teens to early twenties) which is great for the movement but on the other hand that means they are more likely to do rash things that will backfire (eg. Dylann Roof).
I agree for common sense reasons.
Until there comes a time when
white nationalist political speech carries no more risk of punishment than any other ideology, then the anonymity of white identitarians should remain a prerogative.
I agree. Elsewhere I recommended retaliatory doxing of commies, but I see how that could escalate.
Ok, agreed on the major point. Personally I think doxxing within the movement is irredeemably despicable and retaliatory doxxing of that person should be encouraged rather than ‘permitted.’
However, what about people who are doxxed from the opposition who then fold and turn on people inside the movement as a bargaining chip to save themselves? That’s throwing your buddy under the bus to save your own ass.
This is equally disturbing, especially when the turncoat was supposed to be a role model. That person should be excommunicated with just as much prejudice.
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