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Interview on White Nationalism & the Alt Right

thoth384b2,277 words

Author’s Note:

This interview was conducted by an academic researcher who is writing a book on the Alternative Right.

Just for a little bit of background, it is clear that you’ve been involved in the White Nationalist movement for a long time. Can you briefly explain your role in this movement, going back to when you first became directly involved?

I was red-pilled near the beginning of 2000. The first White Nationalist movement gathering (broadly defined) that I attended was on Labor Day in 2000, when I saw David Irving speak in Atlanta. From the start, my role in White Nationalism was dictated by my conviction that before we can create political change, we need to establish certain metapolitical preconditions. We need to answer questions about identity, morality, and the politically possible. We need to create organizations to cultivate and propagate ideas. We need to create a thriving White Nationalist community. We need to transform people’s worldviews by influencing the education system and the culture at large. We need to deconstruct the hegemony of multicultural, egalitarian, and anti-white ideas and create a pro-white counter-hegemony in its place. And when our values and worldview have sufficiently permeated the culture, it will be possible for White Nationalists to gain actual political power and put our ideas into effect.

In 2000, I started thinking of publishing a metapolitical journal, an idea that eventually gave rise to Counter-Currents in 2010. After getting my Ph.D. in 2001, I embarked on a brief academic career that came to an end in 2005. During that time, I launched my first publishing project, which brought out The Lost Philosopher: The Best of Anthony M. Ludovici (Berkeley, Cal.: ETSF Inc., 2003). I edited Alain de Benoist’s On Being a Pagan (Atlanta: Ultra, 2004). I amassed a great deal of information on the life of Savitri Devi, which eventually became The Savitri Devi Archive (, curated under the pen name R. G. Fowler. Under the same pen name, I published several volumes of Savitri Devi’s writings: And Time Rolls On: The Savitri Devi Interviews (Atlanta: Black Sun Publications, 2006); Gold in the Furnace: Experiences in Post-War Germany (Atlanta: The Savitri Devi Archive, 2007); and Defiance: The Prison Memoirs of Savitri Devi (Atlanta: The Savitri Devi Archive, 2007).

In the fall of 2007, I took over the editorship of The Occidental Quarterly, a position I held for 2-and-a-half years and nine issues of the journal. I also edited and published Kevin MacDonald’s Cultural Insurrections: Essays on Western Civilization, Jewish Influence, and Anti-Semitism (Atlanta: The Occidental Press, 2007). In 2009, I started their now moribund webzine TOQ Online. In June of 2010, I launched Counter-Currents Publishing with my then business partner Michael Polignano. I have been the sole owner since 2014. As of this writing (October 13, 2016), Counter-Currents has published more than 30 books, more than 5,000 online articles, reviews, etc., and more than 200 podcasts. I’ve lost track of the number of interviews I have given. Starting in 2007, I have also organized more than 10 White Nationalist weekend conferences and dozens of smaller events.

How does the White Nationalist movement differ today compared to when you first began this work?

The movement is much larger than when I started, and on average it is much younger, hipper, smarter, funnier, and more effective. It is much more savvy in its use of the Internet, video, audio, and print media. It is much more optimistic about our ability to create positive change. It is also slightly better funded and slightly better organized. Once our funding and organization catch up with our growing numbers and talent, our reach and influence will explode.

You recently penned an article titled “The Alt-Right Means White Nationalism . . . or Nothing at All.” This is interesting because on this point you are in agreement with most of the scholars and journalists that have looked into this movement. But there are plenty of people that disagree with that assessment. For example, I spoke to a large number of young people that attended a recent Milo event, encountering multiple people that described themselves as Alt-Right, but that also insisted that the Alt-Right is not about race. What is your take on people who claim to embrace the Alt-Right but also downplay or even deny its racial element?

The “Alt Right” is a vague umbrella term that encompasses all people who reject mainstream conservatism. Now of course that includes many people who are not racially aware. So the Alt Right is White Nationalist not in the sense that all Alt Rightists are White Nationalists. Instead, the Alt Right is White Nationalist in the sense that the original Alternative Right webzine was founded as a vehicle by which White Nationalists could interact with dissident Rightists who were closer to the mainstream in order to convert them to our way of thinking. So the Alt Right consists of a hard inner core of White Nationalists and a flabby periphery of other edgy dissident Rightists who are happy to have a generic term, “Alt Right,” that does not commit them to anything outside their comfort zone. The dynamic of the Alt Right has been to “red pill” and convert the best of these lurkers to a White Nationalist outlook. Those who are unconverted will either remain in our circle because they are comfortable being around White Nationalists and thus serve a bridges and lines of influence to the mainstream, or if they are uncomfortable with the presence of White Nationalists, they will leave. But we aren’t leaving. We built this house, and we will burn it to the ground before we allow ourselves to be evicted from it.

What do you see as the relationship between the Alt-Right, and White Nationalism more specifically, and the Trump campaign?

The movement has a long and frankly embarrassing history of deluding itself that mainstream politicians (for example, Patrick Buchanan, Ron Paul, Vladimir Putin) will somehow save us while leaving the present political system and its reigning taboo against white racial consciousness intact. White Nationalists routinely donate more time, money, and social capital to system politicians who disagree with us and denounce us than they do to building up our movement.

Given that history, it is easy to see Trump as just another man on the white horse, worshipped by legions of deluded fanboys. And in some cases that is true. But overall, it is not that bad. Because in the case of the Trump campaign, two things are different. First, Trump is actually advocating policies that are good for white Americans, specifically the border wall, deporting illegals, and the Muslim ban. Second, today’s movement is much more mature. Much of the extreme adulation of Trump is, frankly, ironic rather than sincerely delusional. It is meant to trigger Leftists and is a way to build in-group solidarity. But most of the movement is quite realistic about Trump’s limits and differences with us. There is a widespread consensus that this time, we are not going to be fooled. We are using Trump. Trump is not using us.

The Trump candidacy is tapping into a change in consciousness that is being produced by white demographic displacement, and the Alt Right deserves a great deal of credit for making people aware of this fact and helping to articulate both the problems we are facing and a way forward. Whether Trump wins or loses, those forces will still be at work. White Nationalism existed before Donald Trump, and it will continue to exist and grow no matter who is in the White House.

To what extent is the Alt Right a coordinated movement? Is it mostly an army of atomized individuals scattered across the internet, doing their own thing, or is there a degree of organization that might not be apparent to people observing the Alt Right from the outside?

One of the strengths of the Alt Right is that it is largely a resilient network of atomized individuals doing their own things on the web, with a net positive synergistic effect. But increasingly we are having real world meetups, and not just at expensive national and international conferences, which have limited utility for networking, but in the actual communities where people live in every corner of every white country.

But the quickest way to get Alt Rightists to fall out among one another continues to be trying to create an organization. Some of these groups fall apart because they can’t even agree on a name. But there is still progress in this area, even though it is two steps forward, one step back, and often up a very steep learning curve. But the movement is growing, maturing, and becoming more functional. Much of the progress has come from the increased percentage of neurotypical individuals as opposed to autistes, eccentrics, and cranks. This is what Seventh Son of TRS calls the rise of “Chad nationalism.”

Although there never will be a central command on the Alt Right, we definitely need to work on creating forums and channels through which activists and content providers can meet and coordinate their activities. Unfortunately, the first instinct of every person who thinks of creating such a group is drawing up a blacklist of people who cannot participate. But that renders the whole exercise futile, since perhaps the main benefit of such an organization would be to build trust and reduce conflict between enemies and rivals. With long-simmering conflicts, it is usually impossible for the two parties to make peace without outside mediation by authoritative figures.

We know that the governments of every white country dedicate considerable resources, talent, and manpower to sowing discord within the broader nationalist scene. It is a hallmark of our movement’s immaturity and pettiness that we still have not organized any vehicle for fighting this. And until we do, our movement will probably be more resistant to disruption by remaining in its present decentralized and anarchic state.

Has the Alt Right reached a ceiling on what it can accomplish as a predominantly online movement, or will its influence and reach continue to grow?

We are just getting started. The Internet is for all practical purposes endless. Thus there will always be room for growth. If I get my way, our online influence will grow to the point that our ideas completely saturate the entire web and Leftists are as marginalized as pedophiles trading jpegs in secret forums. That is what cultural hegemony means, and that is our aim. But of course we cannot change the world merely by occupying cyberspace. We have to occupy meat space as well. And there is tremendous room for growth in community organizing and eventually political organizing as well. After all, the whole point of metapolitics is creating political change.

The Alt Right and White Nationalism received a tremendous amount of media coverage because of the Trump campaign, bringing these movements to the attention of people who otherwise probably would not have known that they even existed. Eventually the 2016 election will be over, as will the post-election commentary. Is there a general strategy within the Alt Right to maintain its current momentum?

There’s no general strategy because there’s no general anything beyond a core intellectual consensus about the problems we face. My strategy is to keep doing what I have been doing for 16 years now, with increasing success and momentum. Trump did not make me. He did not make Counter-Currents. He did not make White Nationalism or the Alt Right. What created our movement are the objective problems with multiculturalism, and our efforts to raise and channel our people’s consciousness of them. Until we defeat and depose the establishment and end multiculturalism, White Nationalists will have a growing constituency, because the problems with multiculturalism are only getting worse. No matter who wins the election, those problems will remain.

The election will have short-term and long-term effects on the movement. In the short term, if Trump wins, I will have to battle complacency in our ranks. If Hillary wins, I will have to battle despair.

In the long term, if Trump wins, he will give us some demographic breathing room. He will build the wall, deport 30+ million illegals, ban Muslim immigration, and crack down on black crime. Such policies will slow down but not stop white demographic displacement. So in a Trump administration, we will have to exert constant pressure first to get Trump to keep his promises and then to move the goalposts further toward White Nationalism.

In the long term, if Hillary wins, she will accelerate white demographic displacement by erasing borders, amnestying invaders, pandering to black rioters and Muslim terrorists, and doubling down on attacks on whites and white advocates. If she wins, it will be impossible to save the United States in one piece and within the current system. Which means that all the energy of White Nationalism will be channeled toward creating a post-American political order.

I remember the first time Hillary was in the White House. I remember the intense loathing on the Right for her and her husband. I remember energy and enthusiasm and large influxes of cash that the mainstream conservative movement then channeled into absolutely nothing. That is an environment in which our movement will flourish. I want to ride that wave. Now we have a movement that can channel that energy and idealism and money into creating a revolution.

Plan A is reform. Plan B is revolution. Trump is not the last chance for white people in North America. He is the last chance for plan A. He is the last chance to save America. He is the last chance of the system to cede power and change course to avoid the multicultural bloodbath that their policies will inevitably produce. Trump is their last chance, not ours.



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  1. Stirner
    Posted October 19, 2016 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Is this the same scholar that penned the piece about the Alt Right that was in the LA Times?

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted October 19, 2016 at 10:49 am | Permalink

      Different guy. You are thinking of Thomas Main. I recorded an interview with him which I will put online in a couple weeks.

  2. Opting Out
    Posted October 19, 2016 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Thank you for posting this. Excellent interview. Quite a few stellar articles recently. I am continually glad I committed to a recurring donation here, however small it is. Wish I could give more. Whenever I read the usual “single guys in their mom’s basement” slur, I think of Counter Currents and laugh. Your wonderful ending is worth repeating here: “Trump is their last chance, not ours.”

  3. Mark
    Posted October 19, 2016 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    As always, an eloquent discussion from Greg. Thanks for all the great work you are doing for the rest of us!

  4. Mike549
    Posted October 20, 2016 at 4:34 am | Permalink

    “Trump is their last chance, not ours.” I feel much better after reading that.

  5. Lovekraft
    Posted October 20, 2016 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Recent follower and someone who, eschewing popular PC thinking and seeking true Christian purpose, believes the most pressing need is networking; finding allies on the ground.

    A monumental task considering the forces that align should any of us stick our heads out. Apathy, derision and scorn met me at every turn. Just be a good boy and go along while we sink deeper into moral and economic decline.

    Sites like yours seems the rational and natural destination in which to discuss how to circumvent the above-noted challenges.

  6. Posted October 20, 2016 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Well said, Greg. Can always count on you to frame our narrative and mission in the clearest terms possible.

  7. Captainchaos
    Posted October 21, 2016 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    The function of Counter Currents is to increase the number of racially conscious White Americans to a sufficiently numerous critical mass so that armed insurgents battling for a White ethnostate will enjoy enough tacit support to secure victory. This will most propitiously be accomplished in the Pacific Northwest.

  8. Montefrío
    Posted October 21, 2016 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    “We need to deconstruct the hegemony of multicultural, egalitarian, and anti-white ideas and create a pro-white counter-hegemony in its place.”

    Yes, that’s your most important mission. All Gramscian and Frankfurt School influences and advances must be ejected from the body politic, public and private education, mass media and so on. To be honest, I don’t view racial consciousness as an overriding issue, but then again neither do I dismiss it as unnecessary. I live in a South American country in which there is some racial tension between the white majority and the mestizos, but the tension is minimal and typically confined to the lumpen class of resentido mestizo.Social justice posturing and virtue signalling aside, deep down everyone knows that if Europeans hadn’t come to South America, any trace of modcons would be absent; one visit to an indigenous people’s village puts it right in one’s face.

    I’m new to this site and find it of interest because most of those who contribute and are involved in the “alt-right” are much younger than I (DJT and I were born a few weeks apart in 1946). I find the jargon a bit irritating, but understand its purpose. Thanks for the work you do.

    • Matthias
      Posted October 21, 2016 at 11:32 am | Permalink

      Many Yanks, Euros and WNs in general tend to dismiss Latin America off-hand, but the region is in fact a fascinating testing ground and laboratory. If a traditionalist, hierarchic ideal could be re-instituted (as it existed with the Inka), and eugenics ruthlessly applied, a true and capable “raza cósmica” could become a reality one day.

      Obviously this applies only to heavily mixed countries like Peru or Colombia. Chile, Argentina and southern Brazil would probably be best served by a Latin form of WN.

  9. Ted
    Posted October 21, 2016 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Commentary on this post (as well as the “concession” issue):

    The question remains: if Trump loses, will the more sensible WNs hold the fanboys accountable for yet another “man on white horse” scenario? Or do we make believe their salivating hysteria never happened?

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted October 21, 2016 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

      What does “hold accountable” mean in a movement that is largely anonymous and online? Does it mean another embittered diatribe about how the people who disagree with you or who remind you of people who disagree with you should be killed? I don’t see anything productive coming out of that.

      • Ted
        Posted October 22, 2016 at 1:50 am | Permalink

        “should be killed? ”

        C’mon, Greg, I made it clear a while back that those comments were “tongue-in-cheek.” More seriously, some years ago, you were quite explicit in your rejection of Ron Paul “sound money for brown people” supporters. And quite right too. Perhaps the folks who have been foaming at the mouth about how Trump is “the last chance for White Americans” (so if he loses we are doomed? Will those people them shut down their blogs?), or have been insisting that “Der Trumpening” is going to be ushered in with a “Trumpslide” victory – and anyone who questions it is a DNC plant – perhaps those folks should be simply ignored – not killed! simply ignored! – so that the sane fraction can move on.

        I see, personally, from 20 years experience in racial activism, that one of the biggest problems is poor judgment, particularly from leadership. Here’s a litmus test for leadership: if you were in battle, would you trust the person and their judgement as your platoon command? As your officer? As your general? If yes, then by all means, support them. If not, why send them donations and anoint them as leaders of the Pepe-Kek brigade? And not all of these people are anonymous – the top leaders have never been.

  10. Posted November 1, 2016 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    I came into what I call the [Bowel] Movement just after Waco and as a Christian Identity militia leader who got into Missouri politics since 1994. I was always anti-CONstipation and pro-Revolution from day one.

    The “Alt-Right” has become a catch-all term since last year and with the Rise of Trump the remnants of White America is the demographic which votes for Trump. The jewdeo-saxon Establishment has had their Republicuck Establishment wing torn off and made irrelevant as anything other than vengeful Hillary supporters. So to outsiders all of us in the Movement are judged to be “Alt-Right” even if some of us, like the non-ZOG Christian Identity, Klansmen, neo-nazi skinheads, etc., are actually “Old Right.”

    Some of us are nonplussed by urban, college educated, intellectuals like yourself, Richard Spencer, etc., who have non-violent educational efforts to the “normies” looking for leadership to lead the Movement. Rather, most of us from the Old Right are looking for the “one-in-twenty” “five-percenters” who will function as warlords upon an inevitable collapse by ZOG/Babylon the Third and Final. I read Counter-Currents, Radix, The Right Stuff, even Daily $permer and every so often Amurrikwan Renaissance, and listen to Harold Covington’s Radio Free Northwest. I’ve never been afraid of the end of the White race, but rather believe in Armegeddon and the dissolution of the Mighty Evil Empire and the depopulation of a third of a billion ZOGling whigger & mamzer ass-clowns into 10-20 million ex-whiggers ruled by Ten Thousand Warlords.

    I think that over 90% of the bowel Movement is ZOGbots. Most of the rest is ZOGtard. What is real is something which has to struggle to survive and has a reason to live — like Counter-Currents.

    So there is a problem in establishing any hierarchy or central command structure in the White Nationalist Movement. The Alt-Right is predominately an intellectual and Internet-based quasi-political effort, likewise without form or structure. Knowing the moral and mental qualities of the present “leadership” of the [bowel] Movement, it is inevitable that decentralization is not only a virtue, but a necessity. It is possible for some of us to network and work individually to a strategic goal, but I would argue that the goal is simply to let the flow of History flow downhill and let ZOG collapse and break up into Ten Thousand Warlordcies each separate and sovereign.

    I’d say that for every survivalist group back in the early 90s which was thinking of becoming a militia group there are four to five “survivalists” or “preppers” or even “doomers” who have no intention of opening their ranks to becoming a militia twenty-some years after.

    1995 — What do you call a “militia”? A survivalist group that still thinks there is a political solution.
    2015 — What do you call a “militia”? A group of dumb-asses who want to be infiltrated and go to prison.

    The Alt-Right is presently asking ZOG for a peaceful ethno-state for whiggers now. Soon, very soon, it will advocate self-help by militants for survival and the end will be the breakup of ZOG/Babylon and the ethnic cleansing of those, like blacks and beaners, who can’t live except on the kindness of the Mighty Evil Empire which is toppling through the refusal of whiggers to support a System in which there is no carrying capacity for over 30 million tops.

    Hail Victory!!!

    Pastor Martin Luther Dzerzhinsky Lindstedt
    Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations of Missouri’
    (Disqualified LibberToon) Write-In Candidate for Governor of Missouri

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